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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  October 2009, Week 3

CONLANG October 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Recycling letters (<: Using <x> as a vowel)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:08:13 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

<deinx nxtxr> wrote:
> maikxlx wrote:
> 
>> I think it looks oddball to use <x> for _any_ vowel, but we're trying to
>> achieve the same thing, i.e., to regularize the orthography while 
>> avoiding
>> inconveniences, and that means recycling unused basic letters. 
> 
> The idea wasn't new.  Rick Harrison had already used it for languages 
> like Vorlin and Jigwa so I just borrowed the idea.  

That is true. I had the impression, maybe mistakenly, that 
this was taken from the use of <x> in algebra to represent 
an unknown and was thus thought appropriate for the "neutral 
vowel" [ə].

But AFAIK this use of <x> = [ə] is found only in conlangs. 
In natlang orthographies <x> has been used for a whole 
variety of sounds, but always consonant sounds; see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X

> In the case of 
> SASXSEK, maximum machinability was a high priority so I had to keep it 
> all within the ASCII range.  Deini uses its own script but there are 
> cases where I need Romanizations, and didn't mind using full Unicode 
> there.  Normally I'd probably use <y> for <ə> 

Presumably that should be [ə]

> but it was taken up by  /1/.  

Welsh gives good natlang precedents for <y> being used for 
both [ə] ('obscure y') and [1] ('clear y')     :)

[snip]
> 
> I don't mind an orthography that looks "odd".  To some extent any 
> foreign orthography looks that way to some degree or another.  I don't 
> think <x> for /ə/ is any worse than Welsh's use of <w> as a vowel.

Ouch! That surely is a bit of anglocentricity!

While <x> was originally used in the Roman alphabet for 
[ks], and has been used ever since in natlang orthographies 
for some _consonant_ values, that is *not* true of <w>.

In fact, <w> was not originally part of the Roman alphabet; 
it is a medieval invention, being formed - as indeed its 
English name shows - from <uu> which, in capitals was VV.

This was at a time before V and U were differentiated;the 
letter V (uncial <u>) was used *both as a vowel and as a 
consonant* (as indeed it was in ancient Roman orthography. 
It seems to me that the Welsh use of <w> to represent both 
the consonant [w] and the vowels [u] and [u:] is pretty 
close to the letter's origin.

> <q> is one I've found multiple uses for.  In SASXSEK it's /ŋ/, Deini is 
> /ɣ/.  I have one conlang using it for /dʒ/ and I've seen in used by 
> others for /tʃ/ and even /θ/.

Yep - <q> is also a letter that natlang orthographies have 
found multiple uses for, cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q

The use for /tʃ/ is similar to its use in Chinese Pinyin 
spelling. I've not encountered <q> = /θ/ in conlangs (but 
that does not mean it's not used that way, but it is often 
conventionally used in Net transliterations of Greek to 
represent the Greek θ (theta), which in modern Greek is 
pronounced /θ/.


>[snip]
>> As far as /S/, my main project Mull has <c> for /S/, but my side projects
>> usually have <x> for /S/. I find the latter _much_ more attractive 
>> than the
>> former, probably the best choice other than s with caron.
> 

<c> is perhaps the most odd-ball of the Roma letters; having 
begun its life representing either /g/ or /k/ (in certain 
environments), before settling down to /k/ before everything 
except /w/ in the Classical Latin spelling, it come to be 
used in natlangs for a whole range of consonant sounds - 
probably more sounds that any other letter - cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C#Later_use

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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