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CONLANG  October 2009, Week 5

CONLANG October 2009, Week 5

Subject:

Re: First pass at Proto-Terzemian sound changes (Re: Towards a well-defined version of Terzemian)

From:

Paul Bennett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:25:50 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:53:40 -0400, Edgard Bikelis <[log in to unmask]>  
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Random comments, I hope them to be pertinent.
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Paul Bennett  
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Here are the preliminary sound changes from PIE to Proto-Terzemian
>>
>> Satemization:
>>    [k^ g^ g^h] > [S Z Zh]
>
> really an aspirated fricative?

A *symbolic* aspirated fricative, just in case I need to handle it in a  
later stage of the language.

>> Modified Bartholomae's Law:
>>    DhD > DDh (ebhde > ebdhe, et sim)
>>    DhT > TDh (ebhte > epdhe, et sim)
>
> I may be too fond of sanskrit, or my own PIE conlang : ), but I thought  
> PIE didn't like things like pdh, tbh...

We'll see how it turns out. I'm not yet sure what I'm going to do with  
aspirates yet. I may even go TTh instead of TDh...

>> Laryngeals:
>>    RH > Ra / C_C
>
> Do you have examples of any language that did short vowels from that
> environment? Except perhaps greek...

OCS has rь/ъ and lь/ъ in that environment, which I thought were short  
vowels. Avestan cheats a bit, and has ar@ and al@, which looks kinda sorta  
like a short vowel kinda thing.

>>    RH > aR / C_V
>
> Elegant : )

Thanks, it's primarily inspired by Avestan, though it's analogous to the  
OCS-inspired bit above.

>>    [E A O] > [e a o] / C_RC
>
> you could mess a bit more with it, like spreading aspiration to the
> preceding occlusive, and/or metathesis, then lengthening:
>
> pH2rt > pHrH2t > pHrat, as you do

I'm not entirely sure I follow you here, but I'll ponder the notion. You  
may be on to something.

>    [E A O] > [e a o] / #_C
>
> greekish (?) : )

Greek indeed. Also Armenian, and kinda Hittite. I'm vacillating on it more  
than a bit, though. As much as I like the outcome, it's not very  
"Indo-Slavic".

>>    CHC > CC
>
> that's sad, poor laryngeal!

It happens in OCS and Lithuanian, and sometimes in Avestan. I agree it's  
sad, though.

> What will you do with the past participles?
>
> dH3tós > ... tós?
> pH3tós > ptós?

I expect some kind of epenthesis will take place.

>>    CHVC > ChHVC
>
> that's a new /h/ or aspiration?

Yeah, sure. Why not? At this stage, it's all purely symbolic, and I don't  
see a need to distinguish phonemic /_h/ from /h/. It gives me a chance to  
have voiceless aspirated consonants later, if I choose to.

>>    H > hH / #_V
>
> so... H3erbHos > HhorbHos > ahorbHos?

H3erbHos > hH3erbHos > horbhos

>    [E A O] e > [e a o]
>
> no vowel coloring? wow

I think there's a notation problem. Vowel coloring is exactly what I was  
going for:

Ee > e
Ae > a
Oe > o

>>    e [E A O] > [e: a: o:]

and

eE > e:
eA > a:
eO > o:

>> Sonorants:
>>    [r l m n] > a / #_C
>
> /r l/ in initial position without a laryngeal first is rare, unless the
> greek prothetic vowels are really epenthetic... they are the most of
> evidence for things like _H3_reg- (orégo:) or _H1_rudhrós (eruthrós)...  
> as
> for the nasals, how will you treat the declension of médhu, for instance?
>
> Nom. médhus
> Gen. mdhéus? mdhwés? medhéus?

I do not know. I may go [r l m n] > a [r l m n] / #_C instead.

> some zero grades are ugly...

They are.

>>    C [r l m n] C > C [ir il im in] C
>
> Lithuanian-like, I like it : ).

Seems to be the pattern in Balto-Slavic, best-preserved in Baltic.

>> There may be more to come. In particular, I'm unsure about Siever's law.
>
> Read Puhvel's article (it's on JSTOR) about Siever's law... I don't think
> this law is kosher anymore. Anyhow, it sounds good... specially inside a
> word:
>
> a:tiya ~ a:tya

I'll check it out. Thanks.




--
Paul

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