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CONLANG  November 2009, Week 2

CONLANG November 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Conlang Names

From:

Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:19:20 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

Henrik Theiling skrev:
> Hi!
> 
> Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
>>> Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> MERCURII DIES 'Wednesday' used to be _melcordí_ ...
>>> Ha, the perfect opportunity to run another word through the sound
>>> shifter of Tirkunan.  And I am sometimes surprised about the
>> result.
>>> This time, too, as MERCURII shifts to _mbrekla_.
>>>
>>> I did not yet add that to the official lexicon.
>> Are you sure there isn't something wrong with the
>> sound shifter there?  The stressed vowel of MERCURII
>> seems to disappear!
> 
> Aha!  You are right.  I converted it without checking.
> Well, the only check I did was to compare with French
> and 'mercre...' is quite similar.

Quite.  Obviously the phrasal genitive+DIEM
weekday names were univerbated with stress on the
final -dí early enough that French vowel weakening
processes affected the once stressed vowel of the
first part. That's one of the reasons why I think
the weekday names should be affected by umlaut in
Rhodrese.

> With the stress on 'u', the result of the sound shift
> is 'mbrikul'.  Nice, too. :-)

What are the rules for the distribution of /l/ and /r/
in Tirkunan?  I guess C+/l/ > C+/r/ like in many
Romnatlangs and then dissimilation to avoid two
like liquids in the same word?  Except for the
Cr > Cl part that's what I have in Rhodrese,
plus the rule that an /r/ or /4/ in the preceding
syllable blocks the { d > 4 / V_V } change and the
{ dr > rr / V_V } change[^1].  I think I'll also
block Cr > Cl in the { r > l / _ [^lr]+ l  } rule,
which invites a further rule { r > l / r [^lr]+ _ }
and { l > r / l [^lr]+ _ }, where "r" stands for
"either /r/ or /4/".  I'll  have to decide whether
/4/ < /d/ is included in these dissimilations;
It probably is since /4/ < /d/ probably is the
earlier change, and I don't find the idea that
/d/ > /4/ went through a [D] stage appealing or
plausible.  I'll also have to decide how early
the Rhodrese /ll/ > [4\`] change is[^2], and
whether /4/ dissimilates to [4\`] or to /l/.
Probably [4\`] is 'too rhotic', so that the
dissimilation goes all the way to [l].

The somewhat awkward situation is that after vowels
Rhodrese has one phoneme /l/ < Latin /ll/ and one
/5/ < Latin /l/, with /l/ being realized as
[4\`] between vowels and as [l] word-finally and
/5/ being realized as [l] (sic!) between vowels
and as [w] finally and before consonants.
Initially and after consonants only [l] occurs,
while [5] doesn't occur as a surface phone at all!
Granted the 2-phoneme analysis is extremely
historio-centric, with the phoneme symbols
/l/ and /5/ reflecting the Old Rhodrese
realizations.

[^1]: dr > rr must be a separate change from d >
     /4/ since it includes /dr/ < /tr/, which results
     from the { t > d / V _ (V,Liq) } change which is
     parallel with { d > /4/ / V _ V }, and dr < d'n,
     which results from a change which is later than {
     d > /4/ / V _ V } and { t > d / V _ (V,Liq) }.
         The only words I know ATM where dn > dr
         are RHODANUS with its contextually
         important RHODANENSIS, RETINA and ORDINE
         (_Rhuodre, rhodray, riedre, ordre_). N.B.
         dr < dn must be later than liquid
         dissimilation or I'll get _**Luodre,
         **lodray, **liedre, **aodre_. While
         _liedre_ may pass and an Old Rhodrese
         _**oldre_ may become _ordre_ through Latin
         influence _Luodre_ and _lodray_ are no-nos
         since I don't want to change the name of
         the language!

[^2]: [4\`] is BXS for a retroflex lateral flap,
     which IPA refuses to provide a symbol for. I guess
     [r`_l] and its IPA analog might be a more
     'standard' notation. BXS also uses [4\] for the
     alveolar lateral flap, since it uses [l\] for a
     alveopalatal lateral. (The [L]--[l\] distinction
     is important in the history of my Sohlob conlang
     family, since some varieties have */r_j/ > [l\] >
     /l/ and others have */r_j/ > [L] > /j/, parallel
     to */s_j/ either merging with */x_j/ and becoming
     /s\/ or */s_j/ becoming *[h_j] and merging with
     /h/ < */s/.)

>> FWIW it wouldn't surprise me if Tirkunan did with
>> the weekdays like Portuguese and numbered them:
>>
>> English     Portuguese
>> ----------  --------------
>> Sunday      domingo
>> Monday      segunda-feira
>> ....
> 
> Very good idea, yes.  It fits the analytic structure very well.  But
> because it would totally confuse me to start with Sunday, I'd start
> with Monday.  Maybe in *that* world, there would be adjacent
> romnatlangs with different week-starts.  Would make for a lot of
> jokes!

Be aware though that the notion of the week beginning
with Monday is a product of the industrial revolution,
and the fact that Saturday and Sunday were picked as
holidays, rather than Sunday and Monday (probably to
accomodate Jewish as well as Christian workers). To
call Moday _prim feri_ would be historically deeply
improbable, unless they went about and changed the
numbering in rather recent times!  Likewise the
Sabbath was important enough for Christian Romans
for SA(M)BATUM to replace SATURNI DIES in all
romnatlangs including Portuguese!

> 
> That's see:
> 
>    prim feri
>    sikun feri
>    treti feri
>    katram feri
>    kimpam feri
>    sisam feri
>    duminka
> 
> I am not sure whether the final -am < -U(M)/(DECIMUM) that only exists
> in the ordinals might have merged with -an < -ANUM, or maybe whether
> the -a- in -am is even too much of a strange shift and it should all
> me -im instead or maybe something completely different.  *sigh*

_-am_ looks too much like a Latin 1st declension accusative!
Since you dissuaded me from letting *UNI become _**ni_ in
Rhodrese[^3], may I persuade you to keep _-im_ in Tirkunan
ordinals?

[^3]: I did not abandon the idea of UNA > _**na_ and
*UNI > _**ni_ wholly though.  I decided that colloquially
in the modern language unstressed _une_ /UnI/ < UNA may
become _'ne_ /nI/.  That's one of the things novelists
use to suggest spoken language! ;)  That means that
colloquially one also says _a'ne, de'ne_ etc. rather than
_aune, dune_ < AD UNAM, DE UNA etc. (Which brings up
another pickle: if and how AUT ILLU and APUD ILLU are
differentiated.  They may both become _aul_, but I think
they become _aud el_ and _aur( )el_ respectively.  That way
I can also differentiate AUT UNU/A, APUD UNU/A, AD UNU/A
more gracefully:

     --------------------------------
             UNU         UNA
     ------  ----------  ------------
     AD      aun         aune
             (a'n)       (a'ne)

     APUD    aurun       aurune

     AUT     aud un      aud une
             (au'n)      (au'ne)
     --------------------------------

     Poor schoolchildren!  The snag is that _au(d)_ < AUT
     is one of the few words which still have different
     forms before words beginning in a consonant or a
     vowel, the others being _e(d)_ < ET and, in higher
     style _txes(t)_ from ECC'ISTU.  There used to be
     a whole lot of them (all which in VL ended in
     nasal + voiced stop + U, or -STU) but they were
     all normalized to -<nasal> and _-st_ respectively,
     except _es(t)_ < EST which for some reason became
     _et_.

> Another possibility that might be interesting is the Sardinian
> ordinals that match the Tirkunan analytic grammar even more:
> 
>    feri d'un
>    feri di du
>    feri di tre
>    feri di katra
>    feri di kimp
>    feri di ses
>    duminka
> 
> As you can guess now: Sardinian has no synthetic ordinal numbers,
> but uses _de_ + cardinal.
>
> http://www.limbasarda.it/eng/gram/gram_iniz.html
> (Then click on 'Ordinal Numbers'.)
> 

Yes, that seems a whole lot more Tirkunan
(but why isn't it _de_ + definite article + ordinal?)

>> ...
>>>    _Þrjótrunn_        < FRIGORITERRANUS (with a little creative
>> help: it is
>>>                         now an irregular sound shift, after a
>> bug in the
>>>                         sound shifter was corrected...)
>>>
>> Dare I ask what the regular form would be?
> 
> The adjective is too long for my sound shifter to work at all, so I'd
> have to derive it.
> 
> The noun 'frigoriterra' is too long for my sound shifter to work
> nicely without help.  Without help, it claims the form would be
> 'þrigritirr'.  Adding -unn: 'þrigritirrunn'.

Starting from those forms I'd expect haplology to
_þritirr, þritrunn_, but I guess you operate with
FRIGORI TERRA becoming FRIGO'TERRA quite early?

> **Henrik
> 

/BP 8^)>
-- 
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
  à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
  ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
  c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

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December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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