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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  December 2009, Week 1

CONLANG December 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Language & Personality - RESULTS

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:58:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

Jim Henry wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Mark Henshaw
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Now, the question I myself most wanted to address was,
>> "How are conlangers truly different from one another?"
>> I was initially skeptical of the Eng/Aux/Art continuum,
>> but I selected questions so as to give these three
>> types of languages the best possible opportunity to
>> appear as distinct from one another:
> 
> Even if the people who create engelangs and the people
> who create auxlangs show no significant differences in
> personality from one another, that doesn't mean that the
> languages they create have no significant differences or
> don't cluster into types.   

Quite. All it would show is that people who create auxlang 
and engelangs have similar traits. It ells us nothing about 
the two categories of conlangs.

> That is, the "three types of
> conlangs" taxonomy may be still valid even if there are
> not three distinct types of conlang*ers*.

Quite so - Also from real world evidence there are surely 
differences between engelangers and auxlangers. In all the 
years I've subscribe to Conlang (15+ years IIRC), I do not 
recall any flame wars occasioned by any engelangs or 
engelangers. Yet during my several years on the Auxlang 
list, flame wars were, alas, only too common.

I am told by those who remember such things that in its
early days, Conlang was dominated by engelangers and
auxlangers, with artlangers being a rare species. Yet,
because of the eristic tone of auxlang mail, it was deemed
desirable to separate into two different lists: Conlang &
Auxlang.

These factors cannot be dismissed.

>> ENG+. The best artificial languages are logical and
>> easily parsed by computers.
> 
> The wording of this question seems slightly off, as it
> would fail to detect a person who creates engelangs but
> enjoys reading about/learning artlangs as well, or one
> who prefers engelangs but doesn't elevate this preference
> into a prejudice against artlangs.

It also fails to detect all engelangers IMO. I understand an
engelang to be one where there are clear measurable
objectives and the language is _engineered_ to meet those
objectives. 'Easily parsable by computer' is an objective of
a high-level programming language but not necessarily IMO of 
an engelang per_se.

>> AUX+ I like languages that have straightforward
>> spelling systems.
> 
> This question is liable to be answered positively by
> engelangers as well as auxlangers (and engelang- and
> auxlang-learners who aren't themselves conlangers).

Of course it is, nor do I see any reason why it should not 
be answered positively by many artlangers. Tolkien's 
languages are normally categorized as 'artlangs', but all 
have straightforward spelling systems AFAIK. Indeed, many
natlangs have straightforward spelling systems   ;)

[snip]
> 
>> Clearly the Engelang scale has consistency problems,
>> which is what we would expect if there is actually no
>> unified category describing "engelangs."
> 
> I think you mean "...no unified category describing
> engelangers." Your questions sort people into categories,
> not languages.

True - but let me quote from one of the co-coiners (And 
Rosta) of the term "engelang" way back in 2001:
"If I look at the range of conlangs out there in our 
community then from my perspective they primarily classify 
into artlangs and what I called loglangs. The artists versus 
the engineers. Those who compose a language like a work of 
art, and those who engineer and construct it like a machine."

'Loglang' had become ambiguous; to some it had the same 
meaning as 'engelang', but to others it meant 'a conlang 
based on formal logic'. It was to the need to resolve this 
ambiguity that the term 'engelang' was coined and 'loglang' 
is now (generally) regarded as a sub-category of engelang in 
which the language is based on formal logic.

To quote again from the other co-coiner (John Cowan):
"The defining property of these [langs] is that they are not
designed in imitation of natural languages and that they are 
designed according to rational principles."

Indeed, And's email of 20th July 2007 is worth reading in 
full concerning the origin of the term "engelang"
http://archives.conlang.info/phi/zelghon/jhaufuersuan.html

Now, it may be claimed by some that auxlangs are also 
designed according to rational principals. Some auxlangers 
have indeed done this; but there are many auxlangs that have 
been designed to imitate natural languages - Occidental is 
an obvious example. Dr Zamenhof was surely aiming for both 
with Esperanto.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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