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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  December 2009, Week 1

CONLANG December 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Origin of PIE ablaut (was How do you give reality to an a priori conlang?)

From:

Basilius <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:47:52 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (118 lines)

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 22:44:42 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>This kind of connection between PIE ablaut and eastern Siberian root-
>retraction vowel harmony has been drawn by Greenberg (who also claimed
>that IE had /e/~/i/ and /o/~/u/ vowel alternations, which actually do
>not exist), but this is not very convincing. 

Was it really what Greenberg meant? That is, are /i/ and /u/ above just what
they stand for in standard PIE reconstructions?

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 23:02:36 +0000, David McCann wrote:

>/e/~/i/ and /u/~/o/ alternations are discussed in 19th century writers
>like Brugmann; it's their lesser 20th century followers, like Lehmann,
>who've swept them under the carpet. From my notes,
>
>Gk nux, Lat. nox; Gk prumnos, Lat. pro
>
>Gk Hestia, Histia; OCS večeru, vĭčera; Skt śiras, Av. sarah; Skt čana,
>Av. čina; Lat. ex, OCS izŭ; Proto-Slav. *ismi, *esmi. 

All of these except _Hestia, Histia_ (and "Proto-Slav. *ismi, *esmi", "Skt
čana, Av. čina" which I don't recognize) seem to illustrate known things:
vowel accomodation to labialized consonant in Greek; schwa reflected as _i_
in Skr. but _a_ in Avestan; Slavic *ĭ as a possible reflex of zero grade
("OCS izŭ" is P-Sl. *jĭzŭ). The vowel in Lat. _pro_ is probably an inflection.

>Consider:
>Gk peitho, pepoitha: /e/~/o/ < *ə ~ *a, with reduplication in *e
>matching the RTR *a
>Gk tithemi < *didəʔmi, with reduplication matching the ATR in the stem. 

But these seem to be different reduplications; in Greek, one always has -e-
and the other -i-. And if you don't mean just Greek, you'll need a few "ad
hoc correspondences" already on the PIE level :)

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:03:21 +0000, David McCann wrote:

>But it's still difficult to see why we have the difference
>between languages like the Turkic ones, where a feature spreads from
>stem to suffix, and those like the Chukotian ones, where one feature is
>favoured and can spread from stem to suffix or suffix to stem.

It's already good to know that both are possible :)

>Similar systems existed in
>medieval Korean and Nivkh, and, if in proto-Altaic and proto-Uralic,
>would explain why there are so many roots where one cannot choose
>between *i and *e, or *u and *o in reconstruction.

The reconstruction of Altaic we dispose of seems to imply that vowel
harmonies are secondary in all branches.

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 21:37:18 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[...]
>On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:03:21 +0000, David McCann wrote:
>
>> One could explain PIE from something like
>> soft: u, ə, i > u, e, i
>> hard: o, a, e > o/a, o/a, e
>
>No.
>
>These alternations simply *do not occur* in Indo-European, at least
>not systematically.  One would expect i~e and u~o alternations in
>the same function as e~o ablaut, and that is not the case.  There
>are only few pairs of forms where these "alternations" occur, and
>there is no reason that those have anything to do with PIE ablaut.
>
>> The nouns have only preserved the occasional trace of alternation as
>> different roots in different languages,
>
>Again, no.  Ablaut was alive and well in the PIE nominal inflection,
>and it is so in some of the daughter languages.

I agree with Jörg. On each point.

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:56:15 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>An afterthought:
>
>Any attempt to link PIE ablaut to whatever kind of vowel harmony system
>is foiled by the behaviour of the alternants in PIE.  In a vowel harmony
>system, all morphemes in a word form appear in the same grade (e.g., all
>palatal, all "soft", whatever) - otherwise it wouldn't be vowel *harmony*.
>In PIE ablaut, usually *one* morpheme is in e-grade, and all others in
>o-grade or zero grade.  This does not look like a vowel harmony system
>at all, but rather like something conditioned by some kind of accent.

...and on Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:01:32 -0500, I wrote:

>I understand ATR/RTR is something that can emerge on some segment, then
>spread (left-to-right and/or right-to-left) up to word boundary *or* some
>other segment blocking its expansion... That is, it might produce sequences
>of same-grade syllables within a word... But I don't see immediately how to
>proceed from this to PIE-type alternations (with more-less all sequences of
>grades being allowed within one word - and alternating).

Clearly, it's not vowel harmony that we need; but ATR/RTR adjustment does
not *need* to spread on whole words, and I'd be interested to see David's
version elaborated. 

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 23:16:07 +0000, David McCann wrote:

>One useful comparison is between the Mongol  "n declension" (where "n"
>is added between the stem and the case affixes) and the IE forms with an
>added "n" in the same situation: hetroclitic r/n or l/n, and the
>Anatolian mixed declension (thematic nominative and accusative, -n
>oblique). Add in the -n genitive in Uralic, and you can explain the IE
>alternations as relics of a situation where postpositions governed a
>noun in the genitive.

I like this :)

I would like it even more if it would follow that at least some productive
types of PIE nouns had whole duplicate paradigms, with and without -n-
(directly leading to strong/weak declension of adjectives in Germanic). 

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