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AUXLANG  December 2009, Week 2

AUXLANG December 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Word order, complex sentences and the arrow of time

From:

"<deinx nxtxr>" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 12 Dec 2009 22:27:21 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (68 lines)

Leo Ki wrote:
> The recent thread about scientific vocabulary had a btw
> discussion about word order and branching intricacies and how
> easy or hard it is to adapt to a different system than your
> native one. This is one of my biggest headaches in language
> design because I'm torn between two unreconciliable ideals:
> 
> 1. One strict overarching branching system with no fancy
> exceptions: Either head-last as in "My sister's old cat away
> went" or head-first as in "Went away cat old of sister me" but no
> mix of both.
> 
> 2. A more natural but more difficult to describe topic-comment,
> context- content, short-long, emphasis-incident system: "Went
> away my sister's cat old", "Old cats are wiser than young cats",
> "There were sitting cats old and quiet".
> 
> I know there is no magic solution to the problem but discussing
> it may help me stop banging my head on it :)
> 
> As far as we can reconstruct the last three or four millenia, a
> number of languages of all families have slowly drifted from
> head-last to head-first but I don't know examples of a drift in
> the opposite direction. Long ago I read in a 
> politically-incorrect paper (I forgot the author's name) that
> there might be a cognitive explanation to it: head-first might
> help building longer, more complex sentences because it allows
> getting rid of small elements of the sentence first so you are
> more relaxed piling up all kinds of complements after them.
> Relative clauses after the noun versus simple adjectives before
> the noun in English are an example.

I´m creating OGL as a head-first language.  It just seems to work 
best for this particular purpose as a loglang mainly for semantic 
orderings.  For humans though I´m not sure it´s best over 80% of 
languages are either SVO or SOV.


> However a strict head-first system misses a lot of the mechanics
> of the human mind, for instance when you want to utter some
> complement first because it's really the element that clangs in
> your head. Old Greek composition was extraordinarily free in
> component order, I never know whether it's due to dialectal
> differences or some obscure semantic rules.

Yes a language will need to be a bit more flexible for human use. 
Sasxsek started out very rigid.  I have since made it more flexible 
by a system of marking noun phrases with prepositions with a 
preference for moving emphasized or topical information to the first 
part of a sentence.  The exceptions are that subjects omit the 
preposition when they immediately precede the verb, and objects omit 
the preposition when they immediately follow.  This allows for a 
basic SVO sentence without having to mark the cases.


> In an IAL there shouldn't be too complex rules for those things,
> but making everything super-rigid for the sake of simplicity
> might lead to it breaking apart and overly dialectizing. Well,
> I'll stop here, I don't know if it's possible to discuss these
> matters without triggering religion wars ^^

There´s the issue again of trying to find a balance.  If it´s too 
rigid, then people are likely to break the rules by creating 
workarounds and you´ll have that kind of fragmentation.  If it´s not 
rigid enough then you leave it open for people to run in too many 
directions.  The trick is to find a good compromise that avoids both 
as much as possible.

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