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CONLANG  December 2009, Week 4

CONLANG December 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: "Bogolang" (was Re: Theadisch, a German-flavored romlang)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:35:18 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

Hallo!

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:00:10 +0000, R A Brown wrote:

> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [...]
> > Yes.  Sindarin owes quite much to Welsh, but it is no way a "bogolang".
> > Just taking the sound changes of one language and applying them to
> > another language (and be that an a priori conlang) would probably have
> > been below the level of quality this master was striving to attain.
> 
> It would indeed have been.

Certainly.

> [...]
> > Yes.  I wouldn't call a "bogolang" fraudulent, even if it is a "short
> > cut" of some sort, 
> 
> No, indeed - which is why I find the term unfortunate. Yet 
> it seems that it would be useful to have a term for a 
> language created by applying the diachronic changes of 
> language X to language Y.

Indeed, such a term is useful.  Perhaps "graftlang"?  After all, doing
this means grafting a part of a language family tree (the sound changes
of language X) onto another part (language Y), similar to the way
gardeners graft twigs of one tree onto another tree in order to combine
the strengths of both varieties.

> > enabling the less creative to make a plasible-
> > looking conlang from two pre-existing languages.  While on one hand,
> > it is unlikely that language Y undergoes the same sound changes as
> > language X did in another place and/or time, it *could* have happened
> > in one of the infinitely many possible worlds, and the experiment
> > which Andrew carried out with Brithenig was a perfectly legitimate
> > one, 
> 
> Interesting experimented - but unlikely to have occurred 
> IMO. If British Vulgar Latin had survived and given rise to 
> a Romance language it seems to me implausible that such a 
> language would have developed independently of continental 
> Romance just a few miles away over the Chanel. Also, Gallic 
> Romance had the same or very similar 'Celtic substrate" as a 
> British Romance would have had

Roman-era British apparently was quite similar to Gaulish, but not
the same.  We know that it would eventually evolve into a VSO language
with initial mutations and all that - things for which there is no
shred of evidence that they occured anywhere in Gaul.  (These changes
occured in British, at least in the written register, only about 500
AD, though they may have happened earlier than that in the spoken
vernacular.)

>       and Saxons would probably  
> have made similar incursions to Franks over on the 
> continent.

One difference is that the Anglo-Saxons managed to displace the Latin
and Celtic in the area where they settled, while the Franks did not.

>       I would have thought that the older stages of a  
> British Romance would have shown greater affinity to Old 
> French than Brithenig does, even if the two languages 
> developed differently thereafter.

Maybe.

> > and not really "bogus" in the sense of "fraudulent"!  It is like
> > those alternative histories where something went a different way
> > several centuries ago, and yet many people and events of later times
> > do occur in recognizable form.  
> 
>     :)
> 
> If any history of WHATL gets more detailed treatment, I 
> would hope that it differs more and more from history *here* 
> as one moves away from the starting point, so to speak (I 
> must remove the reference to Gregorios XIII - tho a similar 
> calendar reform is still likely to have occurred at some 
> time or other).

I think it is unlikely that in the WHATL, there will be a pope named
"Gregorios XIII" at the same time as Gregory XIII *here*, or, for that
matter, a Josephos Peanou to invent TAKE.  A calendar reform, certainly;
any imprecise calendar will call for reform once it has gone obviously
out of sync with the celestial machinery.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:11:35 +0100, Andreas Johansson wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote: 
> [snip]
> > A few years ago, Daniel Andreasson came up with a "bogolang" based on
> > Quenya and the sound changes of Welsh; he called it _Cein_, and while
> > it resembled Sindarin in some respects, it was quite different in
> > others.
> 
> David Salo did a similar thing where the soundchanged from I don't
> recall which stage of proto-Finnish was applied to Common Eldarin,
> yielding something resembling Quenya in some respects and being very
> different in others.
> 
> IIRC it's called "Kynjä", and may still be available online somewhere.

Found something:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/2897

The text is easily recognizable, but hardly any word the same as in
Quenya.  If you ask me, not quite as beautiful as the original.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html

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