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CONLANG  January 2010, Week 4

CONLANG January 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: What's eating you? Or who's eating what?

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:18:19 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

--- On Sun, 1/24/10, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> This came up in Latejami too, where
> Rick Morneau uses middle-voice
> adjectives for the object forms and plain adjectives for
> subject forms. I'm
> not sure the distinction of agent vs. patient is
> appropriate; rather it's
> just subject vs. object, since a patient can be a subject.
> 
That's one way to look at it.
The other problem it seems to me has to do with agent/patient and transitivity. A lot of trans. verbs (like eat) require an animate agent/subject and (at least in most modern cultures) an inanimate patient/object (or perhaps an animate that can somehow be marked as "edible"--e.g. the tiger ate the man, that child is eating dirt). Then there is the implicit active nature of present participles, and the passive nature of past/perfect participles of trans. verbs.

I don't think it's a peculiarity of Engl; I've never encountered a language that has an formally marked "past/perf. active" participle, other than a periphrasis ('having eaten' or a rel.clause etc.). Certainly not in modern Eur. langs. Similarly, the familiar languages tend to lack a formal "present passive" participle ('being eaten'). Though those are good ideas for a conlang, and it wouldn't surprise me if ACADEW :-)))) (I think I might have, in some of my early efforts.)

Note that an intrans. verb creates no problems--
the falling man, the fallen man // the falling tree, the fallen tree

> 
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > Working on vocabulary building for my conlang ai
> Basata, I was looking
> > at participles of the verb bejo "to eat", when I
> discovered a
> > peculiarity of English which I don't want to have in
> ai Basata.
> > Consider:
> >
> > 1. I am ready to eat.
> > 2. The stew is ready to eat.

Some people would say that #2 is "middle voice". There's also the peculiar nature of 'ready to...' that Transformational Grammar pointed out. 
> >
> > In number one it is clear that "I" is the agent of
> eat, but even
> > though number two has the identical form, "stew" is
> clearly not the
> > agent. Two _should_ be written "The stew is ready to
> be eaten." yet in
> > colloquial English we find it perfectly acceptable to
> say "The stew is
> > ready to eat."
> >
> > Now consider participles used as adjectives:
> >
> > The eating man. conveys the correct meaning of the man
> who is eating.
> > *The eating stew. does not, since the stew is not the
> agent of the verb.
> >
> > The eaten man. does not convey the correct meaning,
> since the man was
> > not consumed.
> > The eaten stew. does convey the correct meaning, since
> the stew was
> > consumed.
> >
> > So why does one participle apply to the agent and the
> other to the patient?
> >
> > In ai Basata, applying the participle derivation
> rules, "Ye bejobe
> > macha..." "The eating man..." means the man who is
> eating, and "Ye
> > bejite macha..." "The eaten man..." means the man who
> has finished
> > eating. It takes a different syntax to get the
> "passive participle"
> > meaning "The being-eaten stew..." and the "The
> has-been-eaten
> > stew...".
> >
> > Does this confusion of agent/patient occur commonly,
> or at all, in
> > other natlangs? Is this a problem in your conlangs?
> >
> > --gary
> >
> 


      

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