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CONLANG  February 2010, Week 4

CONLANG February 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Genitives and plurals

From:

Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:37:40 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 13:17, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> - That itacism did not become universal; that, in fact, in Vulgar Greek eta
> was pronounced [e:] as its reflexes in the modern Hellenic languages of
> south-western Europe clearly show.

That should work out fine for me; I was intending to keep eta and
epsilon separate (at least initially) anyway.

> - That upsilon remained [y] in most areas in the Vulgar Greek period.

This also works out fine; the languages spoken in the Engadine *here*
have both [y] and [2], and I had planned to derive those from upsilon
and omicron-iota, respectively. (The latter, if I remember my _Vox
Graeca_ correctly, was pronounced [y] at one point as well, but
conjecturally passed through a [2] stage on the way there; perhaps I
could simply posit that Alpine Hellenic derives from such a stage.)

> I.e. in WHATL even Vulgar Greek had only one set of voiceless plosives, the
> earlier aspirated ones having already become /f/, // and /x/. While Latin
> *here* had /f/, it had no // or /x/ - so what calls for imagination is how
> // or /x/ would've have mapped into the Hellenic langs.

Indeed. My rough draft right now is for /T/ to merge with /s/, but I'm
less sure what to do with /x/. (Weaken to /h/ and possibly get lost
entirely? Strengthen to /k/? Remain as /x/?)

>>> Syntax is probably not a great problem but applying Latin to Romansch
>>> morphology change to Greek is IMO not the best idea ;)
>>
>> Well, the main change I had in mind was "reduced nominal inflection",
>> with just a singular/plural system much like English (or, well,
>> Romansh), possibly with a nominative/oblique stage along the way (like
>> French or older Romansh); not specific morphological changes.
>
> I see. Yes, the old dative would almost certainly have gone everywhere (as
> it has gone in modern Greek) and it's no exactly difficult to see why
> nominatives & accusatives might not have remained distinct. But I have a
> gut feeling that the genitive might have held out till modern times in many
> (all? most?) areas of 'western Hellenism.'

I have a similar feeling, unfortunately for my project.

(Though what form it would take might still be open; I'm reminded of
the interesting construction in... I forgot what it's called, a form
of Greek influenced by Turkish which developed vowel harmony and,
IIRC, had a fixed genitive affix -yu derived from second declension
nouns but later applied even to others; the example given was neka-yu
"woman's", from neka "women", from  -.)

> No, no - not a proto-Celtic-Hellenic in _my_ WHATL. I assume that in both
> WHAT & *here* ancient Greek was ancient Greek - there no divergence until
> the Vulgar Greek of the Hellenic Empire.

I'm planning to diverge around the beginning of common era at the
latest, I think -- based on the date of 15 BC I've seen given as the
start of Roman/Latin influence on the area in question.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

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