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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  March 2010, Week 1

CONLANG March 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Plan B variations

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 6 Mar 2010 08:27:41 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (150 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
> 
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:16:17 +0000, R A Brown wrote:
> 
>> Salvete omnes!
>>
>> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>> Hallo!
>> [snip]
>>
>>> The FrathWiki page on X-1 is still pretty much up to date, and I
>>> have no intention to abandon the self-segregation scheme as I feel
>>> it is at the core of the language.  The idea behind X-1 is "Plan B
>>> done right"; without that self-segregation scheme, it would no
>>> longer be the same project.

Very true.

>> Oh yes, self-segregation is a must in such a project.
 >
> For an oligosynthetic language, however, it is sufficient that no
> morpheme is a prefix of another morpheme, i.e. there are no strings
> A and B that both A and AB are morphemes.  If that condition is
> fulfilled, the text can be segregated on the basis of a simple list
> of morphemes.

Yep - on http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Exp/Appendix2.html
I write:
"Our experimental conlang achieves this [self-segregation of 
morphemes] quite simply since each hexagram, i.e. each CV 
syllable, is a discrete morpheme (if the language is written 
with Roman letters, then each consonant-vowel combination is 
a discrete morpheme)."

And on http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Exp/Appendix3.html
I write:
"My experimental conlang has only 64 morphemes; none of them 
will be used as grammatical affixes. Therefore, the syntax 
of Plan B and Plan C (which have the same syntax) cannot be 
used for this conlang. The language will be strictly 
isolating; but the syntax has yet to be decided."

>>       I also  
>> had the idea of "Plan B done right", but quite frankly the 
>> more I looked into Plan B the more I felt like that little 
>> kid looking at the "Emperor's new clothes.'    :)
> 
> Yes.  It is neither a loglan nor a loglang, only a relex of English
> with a phonology that is both naive and bizarre, and a self-segregation
> strategy that is original but unwieldy (and not even done logically,
> as 1111 0011 ... counts as "6 consecutive ones" while 1111 1100 ...
> does not!) 

...and a morphology that provides suffixes to show the 
precedence of each word its the parse tree.

Certainly it is not a loglan in the sense we now use the 
word, nor even a loglang.  It would seem that when Jeff 
Prothero composed Plan B in 1990, he was using 'Loglan' 
really to mean much what we mean by 'engelang' today.

But does 'A near-optimal engelang' have any meaning in 
itself? Surely one has to ask: "Optimal for what?"  In the 
case of Plan B, the answer must be what Jeff himself wrote:
"[i]s simple enough to be parsed by a couple of hundred
   lines of straightforward C."

By providing a relex of English with suffixes to show the 
precedence of each word in the parse this is, of course, 
achieved.

> X-1 is meant to be "Plan B done right", but I now feel that
> there is no way to do it right at all, 

I think Jacques Guy spotted that way back in 1992 with his 
'Plan C'     ;)

> and I have quietly abandoned
> that project.  (I have just removed the "work in progress" remark from
> the FrathWiki page, and instead installed a "This project has been
> abandoned" sign on the top of it.)

...and my effort has transmogrified itself into something 
different, which at the moment is still in progress.

>> [...]
>>> I dimly remember such a page, but I am not sure.  I think it is
>>> worth putting back online.
>> I've now done so.
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Exp/Appendix2.html
> 
> Thank you!  It may have only historical relevance to what the project
> has transmogrified into, but it definitely interesting to read.

Thank you. I've also, as you will see from above, put online:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Exp/Appendix2.html

This likewise has only historical relevance to my present 
project.

[snip]
>>       As you know, I  
>> gave up on the loglang idea. In any case, Plan B is not a 
>> loglang or a loglan, as we now understand these terms. It 
>> would seem that way back in 1990, the term Loglan was being 
>> used basically to mean what we now call an engelang; and 
>> Plan B is certainly an engelang (whether 'optimal' or not is 
>> debatable).
> 
> I don't know how the terms were used 20 years ago.  _Loglan_ started
> as the name of a particular language, and I think the Loglan Institute
> has always used it that way, and would have objected to Prothero's usage
> if they had noticed.  The Lojbanists use _loglan_ (with a lowercase L)
> in the sense of 'a language based on the principles laid down by J. C.
> Brown', and have been using it that way since the 1987(?) paper titled
> _Lojban: A Realization of Loglan_.  No Lojbanist would have ever
> recognized Plan B as a 'loglan', I think.  At any rate, today we have:
> 
> _logical language_: a language based on a system of formal logic
> _loglang_: short for _logical language_
> _loglan_: a language based on the principles laid down by J. C. Brown
> _Loglan_: the original language developed by J. C. Brown
>           (sometimes called _TLI Loglan_ to distingish it from other
>            loglans such as Lojban)

Exactly.

[snip]
>> The main reasons for slow progress on it are:
>> - I still find that not all browsers will display the Yì 
>> Jīng hexagrams;
>> - I seem to be busier in retirement than I ever was when 
>> working!
> 
> I know what you are talking about (I am too young to retire, but I have
> been unemployed for years).  The more time you have at your disposal,
> the more will the various things you care of expand into it. 

Yep - nature sure does abhor a vacuum    :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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October 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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