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CONLANG  March 2010, Week 3

CONLANG March 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: OT: TV doldrums (and Swedish/Norwegian questions)

From:

Andrew Jarrette <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:15:25 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:17:52 +0000, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>----- "Andrew Jarrette" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:34:06 +0100, Andreas Johansson <[log in to unmask]> 
>> wrote: 
>
>> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 12:35 AM, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>
wrote: 
>> >> ----- "Andrew Jarrette" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>> >>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:45:18 +0100, Andreas Johansson
<[log in to unmask]> 
>
>> >> The Swedish thing is an elusive beast, a combo of /x/ and /S/?. I raised 
>> this question a few years ago here and was told that /x/ would pass until I 
>> got it right ("station" /staxo:n/). 
>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPLPy2Eb2dQ&feature=related; 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHRCGJLIs0k&NR=1; 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP-mqb1iFso&NR=1 
>
>> Anyway, I think it's something Swedes should be proud of (and probably are), 
>> I don't think any other language has anything quite like this sound, apart 
>> from when it sounds near to /hw/ as in Agnetha Fältskog's lect (or perhaps 
>> her own personal variant?). 
>
>God, I love Swedish. I was listening closely, but this issue we've been
discussing was just not on my radar. I *did* pick up on something I raised
here many years ago; she said something with a deeply nasal /i~/, like "bil"
with a sinus condition but I doubt it was that (I believe I was told that
that's "Southern"). I've watched other stuff in Swedish or other
Scandinavian (like "Babette's Feast") and the language is reasonably
transparent or certainly opaque; this interview...she might as well have
been speaking Urdu but for every fifth word. Makes me want to strive harder. 
>
>Kou 


I claimed it would be my last word but I could sing the praises of Swedish
forever if given a chance.  It's soo beautiful.  I could also sing the
praises of the Swedes and Sweden forever if given a chance.  Not to mention
the other Scandinavian countries and peoples.

I too have often noticed that many Swedish speakers' /i:/ sounds rather
different from English /i:/ and from /i:/ in perhaps most languages. 
However, I never thought that it was nasal, I believed that it was
retracted, a central or back unrounded high vowel like the Russian 'y'
(transliteration) or similar to Polish 'y'.  I really don't know, maybe it
is somewhat nasal.  I also thought that maybe it's just a very close vowel,
so close to the palate that it affects its quality and gives it a sort of
resonance that makes it sound like it is produced more deeply in the oral
passage, or a resonance that makes it sound nasal.  I would say this
resonance may be vibration that resonates on the bone of the palate and
therefore sounds internal like a sinus sound.  What do you Swedish speakers
say?  Have you ever noticed that your /i:/ is different from ours and many
others'?  What do you think might be an explanation?

I found Ms. Fältskog's Swedish actually to be a little easier to follow than
others' (I use 'follow' extremely loosely, I mean 'pick up on a word every
so often'), because she speaks not too quickly, rather clearly, uses many
foreign words (like 'stress', 'jobb', 'promenera', 'text', and some other
French-derived words that are easy for Englishers to understand) and of
course because she is subtitled.  Of course any language will sound like
Urdu or another unfamiliar language if it has not been learned or studied. 
I guess maybe you mean that you expected it would be easier to follow
because it is a relative of English; well (if this is the matter in
question) I think that it's English that's at fault because English has
become unrecognizable from the viewpoint of its origin; it is now mostly
French and Latin and the pronunciation, spelling, and use of words, as well
as the grammar, has changed or distorted extremely, unlike the other
Germanic languages.  Really it is questionable whether it really deserves to
keep the name 'English' anymore, as it's definitely not 'Englisc' any
longer.  But that's beside the point, we should be thankful anyway that
Swedes are willing to use some English words and recognizable French-origin
words that we can pick up on, plus the occasional recognizable Germanic
word.  I'm so very thankful (and amazed) too that so many Swedes (and other
nationalities) speak such excellent English.  Many write it better than most
native Englishers.  Ms. Fältskog worries that her English is not good enough
for interviews etc., but unless she's forgotten a lot, what I've seen in
past interviews is that her English is fluent and correct, so I don't know
why she doesn't feel it's good enough.  It certainly puts to shame any
attempt by me or most Englishers at speaking Swedish!  But she is an anxious
and somewhat troubled person, so maybe her overall confidence is low.

By the way, the pronunciations of the <sj> etc.-sound that I have heard in
person were from a girl from Vänersborg, a man from Stockholm, a girl from
Skeppsholm (or similar name, I can't remember exactly), and two guys one
from Lindesberg and the other from Örebro.  I believe in all cases the sound
produced was definitely labialized.

I should add that I realize that you said that you _can_ follow the Swedish
in some movies (reasonably transparent), but could not follow Ms. Fältskog's
very well, so her Swedish' sounding like Urdu is not because you are
unfamiliar or unlearned as I indirectly said above.  I was confused because
you said both 'reasonably transparent' and 'certainly opaque', an apparent
contradiction, and said that it makes you want to strive harder, so I was
not clear about how much Swedish you actually know.

Anything else you or anyone else would like to say about Swedish, or any
other language, I'd love to answer, although I recognize that this list is
not supposed to be about natural languages (I suppose we're to prefix "OT:"
to the subject line).

Andrew

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