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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  March 2010, Week 3

CONLANG March 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: WHATL / TAKE question

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:27:58 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (176 lines)

Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 14. mar. 2010 kl. 12.49 skreiv R A Brown:
[snip]

>> I don't imagine it would have been significantly better or worse.  
>> Empires are empires.
> 
> Yes, and there are empires significantly less charming than the Roman 
> one. But not many...

The 'Pax Romana' was real - there were benefits; and once 
you look below the surface, so to speak, the British Empire 
was not exactly the shining example that books portrayed 
when I was a youngster!  Indeed, both Britain and Rome 
seemed to hold a very similar view: "We didn't ask for 
Empire - we accepted it as our _duty_ to bring civilization 
to the world."  how peoples can  delude themselves ......

But perhaps we'd better leave that - otherwise we'll be 
straying into NCNC territory    ;)

[snip]

>> The only really alternative powers blocks were the Etruscans, right on 
>> the northern border of Rome, or the Greeks in southern Italy. The most 
>> dangerous threat the Romans faced, however, was from Carthage.
> 
> Those turned out very dangerous eventually. But early on, the Romans had 
> some conflicts with Italic neighbours, too, which could have ended 
> otherwise with some luck.

Yes, they did - it's possible, I guess, that one of the 
other Italic groups might have come to dominate Italy and, 
inevitably, come into contact with Carthage.

[snip]

>> If the Carthaginians had won, they are very likely to have dominated 
>> the Mediterranean world for a few centuries. Certainly the Iberian 
>> peninsular & Italy would have come their control and been colonized.  
>> How far into Gaul they would have gone is another matter (that applies 
>> BTW also in an Hellenic Empire).  But if the Germanic peoples put 
>> similar pressure on a Carthaginian (or Hellenic) empire, I think it is 
>> most probable they would have at least established the Rhine-Danube 
>> boundary to the Empire.
> 
> But were the Carthaginians so bent on setting up terrestrial empires? 
> Rather I think they would continue setting up colonies to exploit the 
> resources the natives were digging up, try to knock out some Greek 
> colonies where they could and/or perhaps be knocked out themselves here 

This may well describe the Carthaginians _before_ the Punic 
wars.  But one could also ask if the Romans were so bent on 
setting up terrestrial empires before those wars also.  The 
early expansion of Rome in Italy was essentially one of 
survival - it's either them or us.

I think that after the Punic wars, who ever came out on top 
would not have felt secure unless they took mastery of the 
Mediterranean area (as well as having got used to what the 
spoils of war could bring).  And what evidence we have does 
not lead one to suppose the Carthaginians would have been 
any more benign than the Romans.

> and there if the Greeks could muster some gusto. 

They could never act together for long.

> All the while, the 
> Celtic expansion would go on without Romans to check them. The later 
> Germanic expansion went on as it did largely because the Celts had been 
> weakened too much to check them. Without Rome, it may never have taken 
> place at all, or to a much less remarkable extent. 

As I wrote above, I think without Rome Carthage could well 
have become a check on Celtic expansion. Nor do I think 
Germanic expansion would have halted by Celts, after all the 
ancient Brits didn't exactly halt Saxon expansion   ;)

> And without that 
> crazy Roman empire, would those crazy religious empires of the mind that 
> started to expand in the 1st and the 7th centuries have taken place at all?

Without an empire making travel across great distances easy, 
expansion would have been less swift, I guess.  But even the 
old style Carthaginian trading settlements around the Med 
would have facilitated their spread. The 7th cent spread of 
Islam owed nothing to the waning Roman Empire (except to 
provide a few peoples to conquer).

>> But if the Carthaginians had won, then southern Europe would probably 
>> be Semitic speaking     :)
> 
> Well, that's an interesting prospect in itself. If the Carthaginian had 
> remained a strong culture, it certainly would have had a stong impact 
> for centuries whether they were terrestrially expansive or not.

Judging by all other peoples from ancient times to modern, I 
have no doubt that if they'd come out on top after the Punic 
wars they would certainly have been terrestrially expansive 
- for their own self-preservation, of course. I'd now be 
typing this in the Punic alphabet   ;)

==================================================================

Aidan Aannestad wrote:
 > This looks really interesting. Hellenized Europe is 
always fun to play around with, and I'm not aware of anyone 
who's actually gotten as far as making some languages.
 > (Will there be Hellenic languages in the Middle East, or 
does it end up going all Arabic like OTL?)

That would depend upon whether Islam had the same spread or 
not in the ALT.

 > As for England/ish, it would end up Germanic only if 
something similar to the Saxon conquest happens, otherwise 
it would be Celtic or Hellenic.

Yes, indeed. I have assumed that the Germanic peoples would 
have made similar incursions, but what happened in Britain 
is anyone's guess.  Would a Hellenic Empire have bothered 
with conquering Britain?


 > OTL the Picts started really harassing the
 > Romano-British around the middle 400s, and they called in 
the Saxons as mercenaries since Rome had abandoned them; and 
the Saxons promptly took over everything.

Always a danger if you call mercenaries to your aid. The 
Irish have long regretted getting the Normans involved in 
their internal quarrels long ago     ;)

[snip]

 > If Greece (or maybe Carthage) doesn't bother with Gaul,

Both Greeks & Carthaginians were involved in southern Gaul 
in OTL. They would certainly have been wary of what was 
happening to the north.  If either of these peoples achieved 
anything like imperial power, I think it likely they would 
have expanded to achieve "natural boundaries", i.e. to the 
Rhine.

[various bits of speculation snipped]
=======================================================

MorphemeAddict wrote:
 > Would the inhabitants of that insignificant village Rome 
even have had their
 > own Roman alphabet? I doubt it. It was developed here, 
after all, from the
 > Greek alphabet. Just cut out the middle man, so to speak.

They would have been using their own local form of the 
western Greek alphabets (there was, of course, no 
standardized Greek alphabet until the Attic version of the 
eastern Greek scripts was spread by Alexander & Co. and 
became the alphabet of the Koine)

=======================================================

As soon as possible this week, I will be amending my TAKE 
pages and laying out clearly (I hope) what is and is not 
assumed in the ALT in which TAKE developed.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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