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CONLANG  March 2010, Week 3

CONLANG March 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: WHATL / TAKE question

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:31 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (200 lines)

Speaking of Carthage, just yesterday someone on Cucumis.org asked for an
Esperanto translation of the Russian for Cato the Elder's famous phrase:
Carthago delenda est.

stevo

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:27 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Lars Finsen wrote:
>
>> Den 14. mar. 2010 kl. 12.49 skreiv R A Brown:
>>
> [snip]
>
>
>  I don't imagine it would have been significantly better or worse.
>>>  Empires are empires.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, and there are empires significantly less charming than the Roman one.
>> But not many...
>>
>
> The 'Pax Romana' was real - there were benefits; and once you look below
> the surface, so to speak, the British Empire was not exactly the shining
> example that books portrayed when I was a youngster!  Indeed, both Britain
> and Rome seemed to hold a very similar view: "We didn't ask for Empire - we
> accepted it as our _duty_ to bring civilization to the world."  how peoples
> can  delude themselves ......
>
> But perhaps we'd better leave that - otherwise we'll be straying into NCNC
> territory    ;)
>
> [snip]
>
>
>  The only really alternative powers blocks were the Etruscans, right on
>>> the northern border of Rome, or the Greeks in southern Italy. The most
>>> dangerous threat the Romans faced, however, was from Carthage.
>>>
>>
>> Those turned out very dangerous eventually. But early on, the Romans had
>> some conflicts with Italic neighbours, too, which could have ended otherwise
>> with some luck.
>>
>
> Yes, they did - it's possible, I guess, that one of the other Italic groups
> might have come to dominate Italy and, inevitably, come into contact with
> Carthage.
>
> [snip]
>
>
>  If the Carthaginians had won, they are very likely to have dominated the
>>> Mediterranean world for a few centuries. Certainly the Iberian peninsular &
>>> Italy would have come their control and been colonized.  How far into Gaul
>>> they would have gone is another matter (that applies BTW also in an Hellenic
>>> Empire).  But if the Germanic peoples put similar pressure on a Carthaginian
>>> (or Hellenic) empire, I think it is most probable they would have at least
>>> established the Rhine-Danube boundary to the Empire.
>>>
>>
>> But were the Carthaginians so bent on setting up terrestrial empires?
>> Rather I think they would continue setting up colonies to exploit the
>> resources the natives were digging up, try to knock out some Greek colonies
>> where they could and/or perhaps be knocked out themselves here
>>
>
> This may well describe the Carthaginians _before_ the Punic wars.  But one
> could also ask if the Romans were so bent on setting up terrestrial empires
> before those wars also.  The early expansion of Rome in Italy was
> essentially one of survival - it's either them or us.
>
> I think that after the Punic wars, who ever came out on top would not have
> felt secure unless they took mastery of the Mediterranean area (as well as
> having got used to what the spoils of war could bring).  And what evidence
> we have does not lead one to suppose the Carthaginians would have been any
> more benign than the Romans.
>
>
> and there if the Greeks could muster some gusto.
>>
>
> They could never act together for long.
>
>
> All the while, the Celtic expansion would go on without Romans to check
>> them. The later Germanic expansion went on as it did largely because the
>> Celts had been weakened too much to check them. Without Rome, it may never
>> have taken place at all, or to a much less remarkable extent.
>>
>
> As I wrote above, I think without Rome Carthage could well have become a
> check on Celtic expansion. Nor do I think Germanic expansion would have
> halted by Celts, after all the ancient Brits didn't exactly halt Saxon
> expansion   ;)
>
>
> And without that crazy Roman empire, would those crazy religious empires of
>> the mind that started to expand in the 1st and the 7th centuries have taken
>> place at all?
>>
>
> Without an empire making travel across great distances easy, expansion
> would have been less swift, I guess.  But even the old style Carthaginian
> trading settlements around the Med would have facilitated their spread. The
> 7th cent spread of Islam owed nothing to the waning Roman Empire (except to
> provide a few peoples to conquer).
>
>
>  But if the Carthaginians had won, then southern Europe would probably be
>>> Semitic speaking     :)
>>>
>>
>> Well, that's an interesting prospect in itself. If the Carthaginian had
>> remained a strong culture, it certainly would have had a stong impact for
>> centuries whether they were terrestrially expansive or not.
>>
>
> Judging by all other peoples from ancient times to modern, I have no doubt
> that if they'd come out on top after the Punic wars they would certainly
> have been terrestrially expansive - for their own self-preservation, of
> course. I'd now be typing this in the Punic alphabet   ;)
>
> ==================================================================
>
>
> Aidan Aannestad wrote:
> > This looks really interesting. Hellenized Europe is always fun to play
> around with, and I'm not aware of anyone who's actually gotten as far as
> making some languages.
> > (Will there be Hellenic languages in the Middle East, or does it end up
> going all Arabic like OTL?)
>
> That would depend upon whether Islam had the same spread or not in the ALT.
>
>
>
> > As for England/ish, it would end up Germanic only if something similar to
> the Saxon conquest happens, otherwise it would be Celtic or Hellenic.
>
> Yes, indeed. I have assumed that the Germanic peoples would have made
> similar incursions, but what happened in Britain is anyone's guess.  Would a
> Hellenic Empire have bothered with conquering Britain?
>
>
>
> > OTL the Picts started really harassing the
> > Romano-British around the middle 400s, and they called in the Saxons as
> mercenaries since Rome had abandoned them; and the Saxons promptly took over
> everything.
>
> Always a danger if you call mercenaries to your aid. The Irish have long
> regretted getting the Normans involved in their internal quarrels long ago
>   ;)
>
> [snip]
>
>
> > If Greece (or maybe Carthage) doesn't bother with Gaul,
>
> Both Greeks & Carthaginians were involved in southern Gaul in OTL. They
> would certainly have been wary of what was happening to the north.  If
> either of these peoples achieved anything like imperial power, I think it
> likely they would have expanded to achieve "natural boundaries", i.e. to the
> Rhine.
>
> [various bits of speculation snipped]
> =======================================================
>
>
> MorphemeAddict wrote:
> > Would the inhabitants of that insignificant village Rome even have had
> their
> > own Roman alphabet? I doubt it. It was developed here, after all, from
> the
> > Greek alphabet. Just cut out the middle man, so to speak.
>
> They would have been using their own local form of the western Greek
> alphabets (there was, of course, no standardized Greek alphabet until the
> Attic version of the eastern Greek scripts was spread by Alexander & Co. and
> became the alphabet of the Koine)
>
> =======================================================
>
> As soon as possible this week, I will be amending my TAKE pages and laying
> out clearly (I hope) what is and is not assumed in the ALT in which TAKE
> developed.
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>

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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
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December 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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