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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  May 2010, Week 1

CONLANG May 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: The golden line in conlangs

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 May 2010 08:00:13 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Jim Henry wrote:
> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:23 AM, R A Brown
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[snip]
>> I wrote in an earlier email that in Latin the boundary
>> between noun and adjective is fuzzy. Indeed it is.
>> *Any adjective can be used alone as a substantive*.
>
> A similar, but probably not identical, phenomenon, occurs
> in Esperanto:
>
> http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/a-vortoj/o-vorteca_uzo.html
>
> Bertilo Wennergren analyzes such adjectives standing
> alone and acting syntactically like nouns as abbreviated
> noun phrases where the noun is obvious from context and
> thus omitted.

Having read the page, I think his analysis is correct.

[snip]
> an hour of the day or a day of the month. But Wennergren
> gives a bunch of other examples as well. My impression
> is that an adjective playing the syntactic role of a noun
> usually requires a definite article before it, but not
> always.

Yes. I think it more often than not has the definite article
since in he given context we are speaking/writing of some
person or thing whose identity has already been established,
hence the context is clear and the "understood" noun is
therefore clear from context.

But, as you say, the article does not always appear. Clearly
not in the case of _alia_ (another). But the example given
are very similar to contexts in English where the noun is
"understood" (as we used to say at school) after 'another'
or 'others', e.g.
I don't want this soup; give me another.
She's already the husband of another.
etc.

> The sentence:
>
> La juna amindumas la beletan.
>
> would be well-formed in a context that made it clear who
> those adjectives refer to; and thus also

Which, of course, is why the definite article is there. It's
already been established who the youngster is and who the
pretty person is :)

> La juna la beletan amindumas.
>
> with a focus on the verb, I think.

Agreed.

> I'm not sure if
>
> Juna beletan amindumas.
>
> would work, however, and I'm not sure why it seems less
> well-formed than the previous two sentences.

Because, I think, we don't know what the adjectives refer
to. I dare say, one could contrive a context in which such
a sentence might be acceptable, but I think it would still
feel awkward.

> But omission of an implied head noun, and shifting the
> head noun to the far side of the main verb, are different
> things. I'm still dubious about the acceptability of the
> sentence quoted at the top of this post.

They certainly. I think it is for this very reason that the
Esperanto sentence "juna beletan amindumas fraulinon viro"
is not well-formed. IMO Stevo pointed up the difficulty when
he wrote (1st May) "It's pretty much a given (if not an
outright rule) that adjectives be close to, if not next to,
their nouns."

Although, I guess occasionally there might be a particle,
adverb or whatever of some sort separating noun & adjective,
they will not be separated by the main verb of the sentence!
It surely makes the Esperanto as ill-formed as *"a young a
pretty woos maiden man" in English, despite the presence of
adjectival agreement in Esperanto. You just don't split a
NP by sticking the main verb of the sentence in the middle
of it!

> And further, I'm not sure this is fully equivalent to the
> phenomenon Ray describes in Latin (and Greek, if I'm not
> mistaken?). There, the adjectives and the nouns pretty
> much get marked for the same morphological categories in
> the same ways, and the only way to distinguish them is by
> their semantics.

Exactly!

As my analysis of "ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas"
attempted to show, I don't think "ultima ... aetas" is a
noun phrase in the way that "the last age" (or "the crowning
era") is in English. As I explained: "ultima Cumaei venit"
is a well-formed sentence in itself. It's meaning, however,
is not unambiguous, but it does suggest a meaning that its
hearers would find strange. The two nouns that follow clear
up this ambiguity and, indeed, the last noun, on which the
focus falls, gives the line a whole new meaning.

It seems to me that _ultima_ and _aetas_ are more akin to
nouns in apposition, rather than adjective plus noun. As i
wrote, IMNSHO an analysis which does not show that "ultima
Cumaei venit" is in itself well-formed would be incorrect.

> Esperanto makes a morphological
> distinction between adjectives and nouns, as Ray points
> out, and I suspect that's relevant to if not decisive for
> the analysis of sentences like the aforementioned.

I am sure it is is.

> Arguably, a Latin or Greek adjective standing alone could
> be a zero-derivation substantive, rather than being
> implicitly followed by an omitted-because-so-obvious head
> noun; that analysis is hardly plausible for Esperanto.

Yep. This does not, of course, mean that Latin is better (or
worse) than Esperanto, or English or any other language, for
that matter; it just means that things are done differently.
It's the different way that languages treat things that has
always interested me ever since I was a little kid running
around in short trousers (pants) :)

--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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