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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  May 2010, Week 1

CONLANG May 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: The golden line in conlangs

From:

Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 May 2010 17:03:53 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

----- "Jim Henry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > ----- "Jim Henry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> >> "Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol kurba."

> >> (A straight path is shorter than a curvy [path].)

> >> Granted, that's different in degree from the sentence we've been
> >> discussing here -- the omitted head noun was just there in the first
> >> half of the sentence, and doesn't need to be repeated after "kurba".

> > I see your point, but why couldn't you mark the last part as a noun?

> > Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol purbo.
> > A straight path is shorter than a shorter (one).

> Assuming "purbo" is a typo for "kurbo" -- that wouldn't mean the same
> thing. It would mean "A straight path is shorter than a curve".

> There are languages where the simplest nominalization of an adjective
> generally produces a noun meaning "a thing having this quality"; but
> in Esperanto, it usually produces a noun meaning "this quality in the
> abstract". Unless, as in this case, the adjective was itself derived
> from a noun "kurba" = curvy, twisty, from "kurbo" a curve. There are
> other ways to nominalize an adjective, with various suffixes in
> addition to the -o ending; you could say:

> Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol kurbaĵo.

Doesn't Esperanto have participles, like "curving", "curved", "will be curved"? So couldn't we use a (theoretical, since I'm not going to revisit Esperanto grammar just to make a point) form like:

?kurbata - (having been) curved

Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol kurbato.

A straight path is shorter than a curved (one). ?

By not nominalizing the second element, I would think you would end up with sentences like: *"Your daughter is younger than my."

(oh, that's just ellipsis, since we know what the co-referent is?!)

> > If Esperanto is yawing into an artlang following, I would not at all complain. And I would say "bully" (à la Theodore Roosevelt) to its Utopian, internationalist goals; we should never lose sight of that (albeit, from a Eurocentric perspective). I thought the point was: Esperanto will not be hard and transparent for beginners.

> Indeed, that's one of the main points; but one of the other main
> points is that it should be useful for all purposes its speakers might
> want to put it to. That means it needs to be more complex than, say,
> Toki Pona (which is much easier for beginners, but not flexible or
> expressive enough to be used for all the things people use Esperanto
> for). Arguably it's become unnecessarily complex over time, with
> poets and ordinary speakers stretching it in different directions over
> 123 years, but I suspect that would happen to any auxlang or engelang
> that was used on such a scale by so many diverse people.

I completely agree.

> I don't think the range of disagreement has been that wide, actually
> -- we're agreed on what the sentence means, if it means anything; we
> differ only on whether it's perfectly cromulent vs. markedly literary
> vs. simply ungrammatical, and most if not all of the people thinking
> it ungrammatical expressed that opinion tentatively, with the
> reservation that they aren't thoroughly familiar with Esperanto.

Of which I have been one.

Kou

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