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CONLANG  May 2010, Week 1

CONLANG May 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: The golden line in conlangs

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 May 2010 21:35:09 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

Au contraire, we're discussing a situation that rarely, if ever, turns up in
Esperanto. It's a contrived sentence. Esperanto is adequate for anything a
natlang is adequate for.

stevo

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> ----- "Jim Henry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > > ----- "MorphemeAddict" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > >> I think "Juna beletan amindumas" is well-formed and means "A
>
> > > I'm hardly proficient in Esperanto, but I'm not loving this.
>
> > > But the Esperanto objective seems, at least at the outset, to be: learn
> the 16 rules and you're ready to rock 'n' roll.
>
> > The "16 rules" (or thirty-odd rules under sixteen headings) were never
> > adequate for describing or teaching Esperanto. For one thing, there
> > was an implied notion that aspects of the grammar not explicitly
> > described would work more or less as in the majority of European
> > languages, or that rules about such unspecified aspects of grammar
> > woud be worked out by consensus among the early adopters of the
> > language.
>
> Precisely.
>
> For another, the "Ekzercaro" attached to that rule set, the
> > corpus of sample sentences, taught by example a number of other rules
> > not explicitly stated under the sixteen main headings. And 123 years
> > of actual usage have added other rules, mostly in the way of making
> > specific some things Zamenhof's first book left vague.
>
> I am not familiar with the "Ekzercaro". Sounds like "Amendments to the
> Constitution" or "Gee, how about Exodus 17"?
>
> > >All you need from there on out is experience, exposure, and expanding
> your vocabulary repertoire. Esperanto *explicitly* marks substantives with
> >"-o" and adjectives with "-a". I won't speak for Zamenhof, but that would
> indicate to me a desire for non-native speakers (of whom, at the time there
> >were none), to be able to quickly parse and analyze sentences.
>
> > Pretty much. But to see that Zamenhof didn't consider that objective
> > to be inconsistent with letting the head nouns of some adjectives be
> > omitted when they would be sufficiently obvious from context, one
> > needs only to look at the Ekzercaro: the page from _Plena Manlibro de
> > Esperanta Gramatiko_ I cited earlier cited a number of examples from
> > Zamenhof's writings, including this from the Ekzercaro,
>
> > "Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol kurba."
>
> > (A straight path is shorter than a curvy [path].)
>
> > Granted, that's different in degree from the sentence we've been
> > discussing here -- the omitted head noun was just there in the first
> > half of the sentence, and doesn't need to be repeated after "kurba".
>
> I see your point, but why couldn't you mark the last part as a noun?
>
> Rekta vojo estas pli mallonga, ol purbo.
> A straight path is shorter than a shorter (one).
>
> Since you have "la", the definite article, and "-o", you can distinguish
> between "a curvy path" and "the curvy path".
>
> > > It seems to me that, if you can suddenly interpret Esperanto words
> ending in "-a" as substantives, albeit poetically, it defeats the purpose of
> this design feature hard-wired into Esperanto grammar. Couldn't, then,
> "hunda", "a canine one", just be taken for "dog?" I saw nothing in the 16
> rules permitting this.
>
> > > Why can't the above just become: "Juno beleton amindumas", and be done
> with it? That'd make *me* happy.
>
> > That would mean "Youth woos prettiness", not "A young one woos a
> > pretty one". The nominalization you're looking for is "Junulo
> > beletulon amindumas", discussed elsewhere in this thread. And I think
> > that this sentence is better -- it's not just less formal and
> > literary, but also, even in poetry or poetically heightened prose, I
> > suspect that in 99% of contexts a form with person-nominalizations
> > would be preferable to one with indefinite adjectives modifying
> > omitted head nouns. (Adjectives with definite articles are a
> > different matter; they're far more standard, and any fluent speaker of
> > Esperanto has learned to understand them if not to use them.)
>
> Yes! I've read this elsewhere in this thread, this makes more sense to me.
>
> > And I don't begrudge an Esperantist culture (and I admire the
> Weltanschauung) evolving, flourishing and becoming deeper and richer, and/or
> "pushing the envelope", poetically or otherwise, but this usage seems to
> bend Esperanto rules in strange and extreme ways, which renders it a
> successful European artlang, which ain't too shabby.
>
> > The use of unusual structures like that in poetry doesn't make the
> > language itself harder, as long as such constructions don't become
> > common in everyday speech or nonliterary prose. And I don't see that
> > happening. There are other trends that are affecting everyday speech
> > in Esperanto in ways that make it harder for beginners, especially
> > those whose native language is non-European; but they have nothing to
> > do with this.
>
> If Esperanto is yawing into an artlang following, I would not at all
> complain. And I would say "bully" (à la Theodore Roosevelt) to its Utopian,
> internationalist goals; we should never lose sight of that (albeit, from a
> Eurocentric perspective). I thought the point was: Esperanto will not be
> hard and transparent for beginners. It has evolved, of course. We have all
> discussed how "juna beletan amindumas" is to be interpreted, from varying
> perspectives and threads, with some different result, but if we're
> disagreeing on basic meaning, it is not enough to write up a UN draft
> charter.
>

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