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CONLANG  May 2010, Week 1

CONLANG May 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: The golden line in conlangs

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 May 2010 15:23:32 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (216 lines)

My response to various emails will be under two headings:

[ESPERANTO & LATIN]
And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 01/05/2010 16:32:
>> juna beletan amindumas fraulinon viro "The young man
>> woos the pretty young_lady"
>> 
>> Two questions: 1. Are such words orders ever
>> encountered in Esperanto verse? (I don't imagine such
>> things would occur in prose)
> 
> Good question. One would, I think, predict that such an
> order would not occur in well-formed Esperanto,

I think you are right.

It has just struck me - and I feel a little sheepish at not
having noticed it before - the trouble with the Esperanto
example is that we know _juna_ and _beletan_ are adjectives,
because Esperanto marks them as such.  We can't let 
attributive adjectives be separated from their noun by a 
finite verb.

That, it seems to me, is also the problem we're having
getting our heads around the Latin construction.  We find
(mistakingly IMO) two adjectives without accompanying nouns 
and then run smack into a verb: "Eeek!" is our reaction.

But we only know that in the Latin sentence _ultima_ and
_Cumaei_ are adjectives *after* we have read the whole 
sentence and parsed it.  This is quite different from the 
Esperanto sentence above.

I wrote in an earlier email that in Latin the boundary
between noun and adjective is fuzzy.  Indeed it is.  *Any
adjective can be used alone as a substantive*.  This means
that as one _hears_ the sentence (and Vergil wrote his
poetry to be heard) we do not know that the first word,
_ultima_ is an adjective; it is perfectly possible that it
is a substantive!  The same applies to the second word.

The Esperanto example above, although it may be argued that 
it is theoretically possible, is, judging by responses from 
those familiar with the language, not likely to occur. 
Indeed, I go further and agree with And that it is not 
well-formed in that language. The reason is, as I wrote
above, that we do have unambiguously two unresolved
adjectives, one in the nominative & the other in the
accusative, as we run smack into a verb.

The Latin, however, works because we do not have the same
situation. As I shall show below, when we get to the verb,
*we already have what could be a complete, _well-formed_ and
meaningful sentence*.

Let us return to the Latin sentence with which this thread
started:
ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas.

Now, let us imagine we were ancient Romans _hearing_ this
being read to us by our educated slave    ;)

Note:
1. I use _noun_ in its older meaning which covers _both_ 
substantives (i.e. what we now call 'nouns') _and_ adjectives.
2. I'm not, of course, suggesting a Roman would consciously 
go through the thought pattern below. What I do suggest,
however, is that something like this is going on just below 
the surface as s/he hears the sentence.

ultima - noun, presumably the subject:
    - the last woman/ feminine entity? [fem. sg]
    - the last things? [neut. pl] [^1]

Cumaei - noun - genitive singular:
    - of a Cumaean guy? Not likely. [masc.]
    - of the Cumaean thing [neuter]; yep - he must be 
speaking about the oracle at Cumae.
    So _ultima Cumaei_ = the last woman (feminine entity) of 
the Cumaean oracle, i.e. the last Sibyl;
    or he could mean 'the last things to do with the Cumaean 
oracle'.  We'll see.

venit - verb - 3rd singular, perfect indicative active.
     - [it] has come.
    So _ultima_ is a woman (or feminine entity). I guess 
he's talking about the woman who gives the prophecies at the 
Cumaean oracle, i.e. the Sibyl. She has come??

CAESURA - the 'caesura', or short beak comes immediately 
after _venit_.  As our slave pauses a moment to take breath, 
we think: "Um, the last Sibyl has come? He can't surely mean 
that this Sibyl is the last one, that the Cumaean oracle is 
coming to an end? Or can he?

iam - adverb = "now, already"
    - A bit final. The last Sibyl has already come? She's 
now there? The last one?

carminis - noun - genitive singular neuter = 'song, verse, 
incantation, prophecy'
	- OK, so it's "the Cumaean incantation", "the Cumaean 
prophecy." So nothing really new here. He still seems to be 
saying the last Sibyl has come.  Strange.

aetas - noun - nominative singular feminine = "age, era".
     WOW!! So that's our feminine entity. It ain't the last 
Sibyl that already come - it's the last age of world that's 
here!  That gives more meaning to _carminis_, doesn't it? 
It's the final age of the world that we find foretold in the 
Sibylline Oracles. And Vergil's telling us that it's already 
arrived.  Wowee! Now that's quite some thought!

As you can see, quite unequivocally, the _focus_ of that 
sentence is "aetas".  Where is the focus normally in a 
sentence?  At the end.  And where has Vergil put it? At the 
end.  The word is very important; not only is it the focus 
of this sentence, it is the theme of the remainder of the poem.

That last word also resolves a tension. It is _not_ a 
tension caused by having adjectives with no nouns for them 
to agree with. It is not a grammatical tension. It is a 
tension of *meaning*.

Until we meet that last word, Vergil's seems to be giving 
the impression the Cumaean oracle is coming to end - and 
that would be something his hearers would be uncomfortable 
with; it would sound heretical. It would create a tension. 
That tension is resolved with that last word: aetas. What 
Vergil is saying is that the world has already entered its 
last and most glorious phase: the golden age, foretold in an 
ancient prophecy, has already arrived.

Now IMNSHO any generative analysis (or any other analysis) 
of that Latin sentence that fails to take into account that 
the first three words (i.e. as far as the verb) is a 
complete, potentially meaningful and *well-formed* sentence 
in itself - the rest amplifies and resolves an uncomfortable 
semantic tension - is not truly reflecting the Latin sentence.

[^1] In case anyone thinks to themselves "It could also be 
ab ablative feminine", it certainly could not.  We are to 
imagine ourselves as Romans _hearing_ the line and we would 
have heard a short final -a.
====================================================

[OTHER CONLANGS]
Two conlangs have been said to be able to do the same as the 
Esperanto sentence I gave (and, presumably, could also give 
a word by word translation of the Latin without having to 
re-arrange the words).  So:

Andreas Johansson wrote:
[snip]
 > I don't have a word for "to woo", and don't feel 
sufficiently romantic
 > ATM to invent one, but an analogous construction in 
Meghean would be
 > this:
 >
 > Miea linao acarebh cheacio catear.
 >
 > young beautiful-ACC see/watch-PROGRESSIVE DEF-lady-DIM vassal
 > "The young vassal watches the beautiful young lady."
[snip]
 > Would be a really odd way of expressing it however. 
Perhaps if a poet
 > really wanted to show off his cleverness.

and:
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[snip]
 > I cannot speak for Esperanto, but such word order is 
possible in
 > Old Albic:
 >
 > _Ivo binem phrijasa sarem ndaro._
 > young-M.AGT beautiful-F.OBJ woo-3SG:P-3SG:A 
young.woman-F.OBJ man-M.AGT
 > 'The young man woos the pretty young woman.'

What I am wondering is whether the two examples are:
(a) like Esperanto, i.e. that before the verb are two 
attributive adjectives and that, therefore, we have a 
grammatical tension which is resolved by the two 
substantives in the second part of the sentence, or
(b) like Latin where the first three words could form a 
complete, well-formed sentence in themselves.

(b) applies not only to the _ultima Cumaei_ sentence, but is 
equally valid with a direct translation of my Esperanto 
sentence: iuvenis bellulam petit puellam vir.  "iuvenis 
bellulam petit" is a complete, well-formed sentence in 
itself.  Indeed, the "puellam vir" additions are really 
redundant in that sentence.

I get the impression, from word Andreas also wrote, namely 
"Would be a really odd way of expressing it however. Perhaps 
if a poet really wanted to show off his cleverness", that 
Meghean is an example of (a).  If this so, one must ask if 
indeed such a sentence could properly be considered 
well-formed in Meghean.

But maybe Old Albic is more akin to Latin in its behavior. 
Is "Ivo binem phrijasa" a complete, well-formed sentence?

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 2
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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