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CONLANG  May 2010, Week 2

CONLANG May 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Old Albic update: Some notes on vowel phonology

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 May 2010 07:21:48 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (226 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
> 
> On Fri, 7 May 2010 09:17:34 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>>  Thus, the basic vowel qualities are /a e i o ø u y/:
>>>
>>>         a  e  i  o  ø  u  y
>>> [open]  +  +  -  +  +  -  -
>>> [front] -  +  +  -  +  -  +
>>> [round] -  -  -  +  +  +  +
>> OK - not an uncommon set of vowels.
> 
> Indeed not.  I don't think an unusual inventory is the best way to
> make a phonology interesting; it is much more interesting what one
> *does* with the inventory. 

Quite so - the same with other features of language also. 
That's why I wrote "OK."  Old Albic is meant to be 
naturalistic, therefore fairly normal vowel inventory is 
what is called for    :)

> I have seen languages which have odd
> phoneme inventories, but do nothing of interest with the phonemes.

Yep.

[snip]
>> I assume, both by the use of the acute diacritic and by the 
>> use of the term "thrusting", that this is a rising tone. 
>> The description of the "slipping tone" sounds like the 
>> Mandarin 3rd tone. Is this right?
> 
> Not really.  Old Albic is a stress-accent language.  

Then maybe 'tone' is not the best word to use. 'Tone' is 
usually taken in English to mean: "A term used in PHONOLOGY 
to refer to the DISTINCTIVE PITCH level of a SYLLABLE" 
[David Crystal]. It suggests we're talking about pitch 
rather than stress.

> The intonations

Similarly Crystal defines 'intonation' thus: "A term used in 
the study of SUPRASEGMENTAL PHONOLOGY, referring to the 
distinctive use of patterns of PITCH, or melody."

> of the long vowels are comparable to contrasts found in some local
> dialects of German in pairs such as the last two words in the sentence
> 
> Sie liebte den Seher sehr.
> 
> In some German dialects, the last two words differ only in the kind
> of stress.  In German, these intonations are called _Stoßton_ and
> _Schleifton_; the terms "thrusting tone" and "slipping tone" are my
> own attempts at translating the German terms.  

Maybe - but once you start talking about "thrusting tone" or 
any other sort of tone, a reader (or listener) is likely to 
start thinking in terms of the sort of tones one finds in 
Chinese. I've done a quick Google - it would seem that where 
people do refer to this phenomenon they simply retain the 
German terms.

> In the sentence above,
> _Seher_ has Schleifon, and _sehr_ has Stoßton.  Stoßton is a simple
> stress accent on the first mora of the vowel, while Schleifton is a
> somewhat weaker accent on the firt mora and a slight secondary accent
> on the second mora.  Schleifton occurs where two vowels were contracted
> into one, in German as well as in Old Albic.

I see. Now I see what you're getting at, I'd like just to 
quote again the table you gave in your first email:
{quote}
Tr. IPA  Tr. IPA   Tr. IPA
a   [ɐ]  á   [a:]  â   [aɐ]
e   [ɛ]  é   [e:]  ê   [eɛ]
i   [ɪ]  í   [i:]  î   [iɪ]
o   [ɔ]  ó   [o:]  ô   [oɔ]
ø   [œ]  ǿ   [ø:]  ø̂   [øœ]
u   [ʊ]  ú   [u:]  û   [uʊ]
y   [ʏ]  ý   [y:]  ŷ   [yʏ]

(Tr. = transcription)
{/quote}

I think I would call the first column 'short', the second 
'long' and the third 'centering diphthongs'. A diphthong is 
"a vowel where there is a single (perceptual) noticeable 
change in the quality during a syllable" [Crystal]. In the 
third column there is such a change, and the lax vowel 
surely show a shift towards the center.

>> I suppose the long thrusting ones could be regarded as 
>> having the tense vowel throughout while the slipping ones 
>> shift from tense to lax, i.e. you could, for example, use 
>> the representation:
>> Tr. IPA  Tr. IPA   Tr. IPA
>> a   [ɐ]  á   [aa]  â   [aɐ]
>> etc.
> 
> Right.

This the third column is (mildly) diphthongal   ;)

[snip]
>>> For instance, the locative
>>> case of _mor_ 'shadow' is _môrol_: the underlying stem has a
>>> slipping-tone long vowel which is shortened in the base form
>>> because the syllable is closed. In the locative case, the /r/
>>> following the vowel belongs to the second syllable, and the
>>> long vowel, being stressed, is not shortened.
>> Yes, I follow this. But as one who has got used to things 
>> like _môr_ /mo:r/ "sea" in Welsh, and the monosyllable with 
>> circumflexed vowels in Sindarin, this goes against the grain 
>> for me.  While I go along with vowel shortening in closed 
>> syllables in polysyllabic words and, indeed, in 
>> monosyllables where the syllable is blocked by two or more 
>> consonants, the shortening in monosyllables before a single 
>> consonant might be reconsidered?    ;)
> 
> It may be reconsidered.  I am not really sure yet about when exactly
> long vowels are shortened.  

Good  ;)

> Old Albic allows for two consonants in
> a coda, even though most codas have at most one (and many syllables
> are open).  Hence, there is no reason to diasllow long vowels in
> closed syllables.  But unstressed long vowels feel awkward to me
> here, so I'll probably change the rule such that only unstressed
> long vowels are shortened.  Long vowels in monosyllables would thus
> not be shortened.

OK.

>>> [vowel positioning rules]
>> All that these six rules seem to me to do is to predict 
>> _where_ the vowel will occur, but not what the vowel will 
>> be.  
[snip]
>> was.  Or have I missed something?
> 
> The rules indeed only specify *where* the vowels are.  The qualities
> of the vowels are determined by vowel features that bind to the
> morphemes.  All lexical roots have at least one vowel feature bound
> to them.  Some affixes have no feature bound to them; in these cases,
> the features of the root (or whatever morpheme with vowel features
> is nearest) propagate to the affix.  If a morpheme has only one
> feature attached (which is the case with most morphemes), that
> feature spreads to the preceding morpheme (causing umlaut).
> 
> Consider a simple example.  The word _bacas_ 'bread' consists of the
> consonants b-c-s; the rules above insert vowel positions like so:
> b°c°s.  The root carries the vowel feature [+open], hence, the word
> manifests as _bacas_.  (This is an example for the fact that in a
> bisyllabic root, both vowels are always the same.)  Now, if we add
> the plural suffix -im to it, the following happens: the plural suffix
> consists of one consonant: m; which means that the vowel position is
> before that: °m.  The suffix carries the feature [+front], hence the
> surface form of the suffix is -im.  Now, the vowel feature spreads to
> the preceding morpheme, so we get the form _becesim_:
> 
>  [+open]  [+front]   [+open][+front]
>     |         |          |  / |
>   b°c°s      -°m   ->  b°c°s-°m     -> becesim

Thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean by 
autosegmental now   ;)

>>> [irregularities and lost consonants]
>> No problem - such things happen in natlangs.
> 
> Indeed.  Old Albic would be less realistic if there weren't such
> irregularities.

Quite so. Any artlang that wants to appear naturalistic 
won't do so without any irregularities.

[snip]
> 
> Exactly that.  On one tier, there are the consonants; on another tier,
> there are the vowels.  The vowel-positioning rules determine where the
> vowels are inserted into the consonant string.

Yep - I've got that now.

[snip]
>> SIL, however, defines 'autosegmental phonology' thus; 
>> "Autosegmental phonology is a non-linear approach to 
>> phonology that allows phonological processes, such as tone 
>> and vowel harmony, to be independent of and extend beyond 
>> individual consonants and vowels."
>>
>> This looks to me remarkably similar to the 'Prosodic' 
>> approach of J.R. Firth in the 1950s.  If this so, I'm not 
>> really clear how this does actually apply to Old Albic.
> 
> The mechanisms of umlaut (before /a/, /i/ and /u/) and vowel harmony
> (in affixes without vowel features) at least involve vowel features
> spreading from morpheme to morpheme. 

Yes, I see that now. It seems to me that one could well 
explain the Old Albic vowel behavior in terms of Firth's 
prosodic theory.

> I am not too firmly saddled in
> the terminology of phonological theories; in my usage of the term
> "autosegmental", I was inspired by a phonology textbook which
> introduced autosegmental phonology as a means to deal with the
> behaviour of tones in African languages.

That's what I understood. Both the autosegmental approach 
and the prosodic approach are theoretical (as, indeed, is 
the phonemic theory itself); for description, I would choose 
the theoretical approach I felt most comfortable with.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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