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CONLANG  May 2010, Week 2

CONLANG May 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Random phonology generator online

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 10 May 2010 18:56:12 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

Multiresponse here.

On Mon, 10 May 2010 10:28:51 -0400, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I expect the coolest feature would be to add some genetic algorithm
>code so that the user can, at their option, either generate another
>phonology from scratch, or generate two or more new phonologies that
>are slight random variations on the last one, and then pick their
>favorite of the new variations to make further variations on, etc. --
>and give options about how large the random variations for the next
>generation are to be.   I have this feature in Boris, but it's much
>less interesting than it would be in your Gleb, simply because Gleb
>generates fairly plausible phonologies, while Boris hardly knows
>anything about phonology, and even its orthographies are not
>especially plausible.

Boris does orthographies?  Is this new, or have I forgotten?

In any case, yes.  This would be quite close to what Pete has suggested,
then, since to a certain level of abstraction my rules *do* look like the
ones in his declarative language.

I wrote you a few months ago about this, to ask how feasible it would be to
extract that part of Boris as something modular.  From what I {understand,
remember} about Boris, its techniques could be generalised into a fairly
general module for geneticising and random generator like this: to sketch
it, in place of calls to rand() one would make calls to a function of that
module, which would take as argument a label (for a node in a tree?) of some
kind identifying what it is we're generating ("this is for deciding whether
we have uvulars"; "this is for deciding how frequent they are"; ...).  It
would store its choice in a data file somewhere.  Then, when run in various
modes, it could make the decisions genuinely randomly, or mostly copying the
decisions in an earlier data file with some given fidelity (mutation), or
picking from between two data files (crossbreeding).  


On Mon, 10 May 2010 09:20:27 -0700, Lee <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Maybe I missed it, or maybe it is beyond the scope of your program, but do
you have a way of applying features to morphemes or syllables?

I don't fully know what you mean.  Perhaps not, though -- aside from when it
generates the words, it doesn't know what a syllable is yet, although later
versions will.  And it knows nothing about morphology; that'll be the scope
of a different program.  

>Is there any documentation for the syntax of the rules. Most of it
self-evident, and your code helped fill in a few gaps, but some parts have a
me scratching my head.

Like, how I internally represent them?  The only documentation is what's in
the comments, there.  Have particular questions?

>I enjoyed reading your code... "terrorist loops" LOL.

:)


On Mon, 10 May 2010 12:44:32 -0700, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On May 10, 2010, at 12:19 AM, Alex Fink wrote:
>> I'd imagine because it first did a normal intervocalic spirantisation, with
>> /g/ > [G] alongside the rest, and then had a rule [G] > [x] apply.  Neither
>> of those on their own are bizarre (Dutch's done the latter, for instance);
>> do you think the combination is less likely than the product of its parts?
>
>Notice that that sound change in Dutch wasn't independent. In fact, if
>that's the North dialect, Mr. Internet says *all* voiced fricatives merged
>with their voiceless counterparts. As such, yes, I'd say those two are
>pretty strange (especially if that particular phonology had /b/ > [B] or
>[v] intervocalically).

Hum.  Perhaps.  I'm just gonna put this one in the outlier file.  I'll tweak
(twoak?) the probabilities against it recurring.  

>>(Which is more accurate; one might take even [ddZ]
>> as having two releases.)
>
>Uhhh...it's more accurate for [dZ:], but that's not how affricates usually
>geminate. If you wanted to use the long notation, I'd use [d:Z].

Ohh, like that, I getcha.  I was treating [dZ] as unitary, not trying to
bind the colon to one letter or the other.  
Actually, how does it spell a long affricate now?  *checks*  Okay, as "dZ):"
(in CXS mode, but analogously in IPA mode).  If I want to change it to
"d:Z)" I have to change the code (not just the datafile) but it should be
easy.  

But it doesn't have a concept of the two parts of the affricate as something
that can have different lengths -- affrication and length are just binary
features -- and to change _that_ would be tear-everything-out hard. 
(Likewise laterality is binary and so you couldn't represent a coarticulate
[ptK))], say, half lateral and half not.)

>> because the underlying specification of [dZ] is just a
>> voiced non-anterior coronal stop or something
>
>What about palatal stops?

Yeah, could've totally been an underlying palatal stop, too.  Meant to be
just an example.

>> [...] and then do a
>> morphophonology component (prolly word and paradigm-inspired) to stitch 'em
>> together, and then do ... the next thing I can think of a way to model?
>
>I bet you could do this without tying the phonological forms to any
>specific meaning. For example:
>
>tarnak (stem 1)
>tarnaSa (stem 1, form 1)
>tarnakki (stem 1, form 2)
>tarnako (stem 1, form 3)
>
>Etc. Leave it to the user to figure what the affixes are and how
>they map onto meaning.

Sure, it would definitely have a mode where you could just say e.g. "gimme a
5x2x3 system of forms", and get this.  


On Mon, 10 May 2010 11:04:21 -0400, John Vertical <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>I'm seeing a /w_+/ or /H/ a lot, too.
>
>Also I seem to have better luck in getting up a /r r\/ contrast than a /r 4/
>contrast, but maybe the latter is in the pile of gemination issues to iron
>out...?

I'll tweak these.

>Very cool, anyway. Now you'll just need a Random Orthography Generator to go
>with it and you'll have obsoleted the world's nomenlang supply :)

Hah!  Yeah, romanization is another component that should be thrown in
eventually -- and actually one where you want to be minimally creative,
isn't it.  But actual (native) orthography?  Now that would be awesome.  Any
conscripters out there up to it? :)


Alex

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