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AUXLANG  May 2010, Week 4

AUXLANG May 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Idiom Neutral revival

From:

Kjell Rehnstr?öm <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 23 May 2010 06:44:00 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (51 lines)

steve rice skrev:
> --- On Sat, 5/22/10, Larry Sulky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>   
>>> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:06 AM, MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>       
>
>   
>>> I thought about that, but what if the situation were reversed? Let's
>>>       
> say women always made more money than men, men stayed in the kitchen
> and weren't able to vote, etc. I suspect they would look at the ilai
> pronoun and say "oh look at that, women not only rule over men but
> they also get their own pronoun, while when you say ili there's no way
> to know whether it's a group entirely consisting of men or not. When
> will men get their own plural pronoun?"
>
>   
>> Nice try, Dave. ;-) "We're not assuming that the default condition is male! No, not at all! In fact, we're elevating women by having a special pronoun for them! Yeah, that's right! And it's worked for Esperanto!"
>>     
>
>   
>> C'mon, Dave! All the cool kids are doing sex-neutral auxlangs! Don't be a dweeb!
>>     
>
> It generally does work better in such cases to analyze the genders as feminine and non-feminine (with an added "inanimate" category in this case). And yes, that does give females a special position: males are generic, while females are special.
>
> "[I]t's worked for Esperanto!" It sure has; Eo has far and away more users and a larger corpus than (say) Ido, which does the sex-neutral bit. There are whiners; there always are. And perhaps Eo truly will acquire a gender-neutral pronoun someday, just as the rest of its lexicon is trending in a gender-neutral direction. However,
>
> 1. As noted, the current arrangement doesn't really insult anybody, except perhaps men, and we're used to it. (It's the same setup as Volapuk had, incidentally.)
>
> 2. The gender-neutral idea is not natural for a lot of people. LFN's generic "el" is a major mistake; if they had a more normal system--even one like Ido's--they would likely do better. And bear in mind how false a simplistic Whorfian view can be: Japanese does not have gender as such, but has the society that generated and used it been particularly fair to women?
>
> 3. Therefore it will be a problem only for those determined to make it a problem. This is actually a good thing: it's always better to weed such people out as early as possible. Otherwise they will sow discontent and instability in a budding language with too few users to stand the strife.
>
> Steve
>
>
>       
>
>   
My hypothesis is that sex distinctions is something that can be 
negotiated in a language. If there is a need for sex neutral words, the 
users will make them. I think that if we study the history of a couple 
of languages we would probably see that pronouns can be a productive class.

Note also how the form of address can change in accordance with the 
social system prevailing.

Kjell R

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