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CONLANG  June 2010, Week 1

CONLANG June 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Licensing of Conlangs/Conworlds

From:

Sai Emrys <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:03:52 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (228 lines)

[Note: Most of this only applies to US law, though some is about any
Berne signatory country. IANAL & IANYL but I have researched this in
some detail.]

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Patrick Michael Niedzielski
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> If you wrote out a formal grammar, you can copyright the formal grammar.

No "can". Copyright inherently exists in all qualifying fixed creative
texts (like a grammar sketch) in all countries that have signed the
Berne conention.

> using the language is creating a derivative work of it, but a judge may not agree.

I disagree. Derivative works of a grammar sketch would be, for
instance, a revised sketch that in very large part uses the exact text
of the original.

For instance, a completely rewritten sketch would not be a derivative
work. Copyright exists only in fixed forms, not in ideas.

> With a CC license, anyone using your language would need to attribute it
> to you any time they make a recording, textual story, and so on.

Copyright does not and cannot exist in *a language*, only in *fixed
texts describing one*. This is a huge difference.

As such, CC licenses do not apply to languages.

> same problems are in Klingon, as Paramount Pictures owns the copyright
> to the language.

Incorrect; they own no copyright to *the language*. They own copyright
to "The Klingon Dictionary", the book, as well as to various TV shows
and movies that use the language.

>  Paramount has said they will not sue for the use of the language, but that implies they *could*.

It does not, except in the trivial sense that anybody can sue anyone
for anything regardless of legal justification.

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Carsten Becker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> it's only possible to give up the *exploitation rights* to third parties, e.g.
> allowing them to use your materials for republishing without your written
> permission, e.g. by yourself expressedly releasing your content into the
> public domain.

Incorrect, at least in the US. Copyright is fully assignable, in whole
or part; it is not inalienably possessed. "Licenses" are effectively
partial assignments or sharings of copy rights (e.g. the right to sell
derivative works), but there are certainly many situations where one
may completely transfer all copyright interest in a work, such that
another entity owns it outright.

> Personally, I've considered adopting a copyleft licence when I've finally
> come around to make my grammar writeup complete, as I don't want to make
> money with my conlang and related things, however as long as they're in a
> transitory state I would like to keep control, just in case.

Not to be too cynical, but... in case of what exactly? Can you give an
example of something that has actually happened that you want and
would be able to prevent in this manner?

Bluntly put, the chance that anyone will want to use your conlang for
something is tiny, and the chance that they will want to do so if you
try to protect it in any way is infinitesimal.

In almost all cases where a conlang might be useful (i.e. novels,
films, etc) they'd IMO most likely want their own, to fit with their
own world etc.

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:51 PM, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There have been two people (both outside the US, oddly enough)
> who have contacted the LCS to let us know that they've applied
> for a US patent for their language.

I think I posted about both, so a list archive search will find them.
IIRC both were about naïve numerical assignment systems for vocabulary
with claims to being interlinguas.

> but I have no idea what that says about anything, legally
> (I suspect not much).

Ditto. Obtaining a patent requires a fairly weak standard of proof and
patents are routinely disputed.

Also, this process cannot apply to ordinary artlangs. What is being
patented here is a (claimed) unique process / technique. For artlangs,
all natlangs would constitute "prior art". ;-)

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 12:32 AM, David McCann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Not too surprising: the US Patent Office is probably the only one which
> would countenance such an application! In almost all other countries you
> cannot patent an idea, only a physical invention. You have copyright in
> the expression of the idea in words, but not for the idea itself. A few
> years ago someone re-wrote a set of wargame rules to make them more
> readable; this was not a copyright infringement, as only the original
> wording was protected. If the mechanisms of a game are not copyright, it
> is unlikely that those of a language would be.

You are skipping far too easily between copyright and patent. The two
are completely unrelated things for completely different stuff.

Patents, in the US, primarily protect processes and methods (e.g. the
process of making a physical thing). Copyright, universally, protects
certain fixed creative works like books and films. Trademark and trade
dress is yet another unrelated status (though often used in
conjunction with copyright).

Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, because it is not the
appropriate thing. They might be patentable, but I think such a claim
would be hard to keep, as one would need to prove the uniqueness of
one's invention.

Case in point: Wizards of the Coast (owners of D&D) published the "D20
Open Gaming License" which allows third parties to (with certain
restrictions) use their game mechanics, trademarks / trade dress. It
is for the most part a matter of trademark and copyright; it allows
people to use the term "D20" - a trademark of WotC - to display that
their products are cross-compatible with others that to do so,
including WotC's own (like D&D).

However, it is not protectable *as a system* - and indeed, a competing
group published an exact knockoff called the "OGL system" in which
they merely replaced all cases of WotC copyrights and/or trademarks
with different, generic terms and rewrote the entire documents
describing the system. This is something WotC basically can't do
anything to prevent other than by bluster.

Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D20_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Game_License
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OGL_System

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Ben Scerri <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Really? Seems like it would be easy to steal things in that case, by just
> changing a few words here and there, one could reprint and sell books etc...

No. This would be making a derivative work of copyrighted text, which
is a right reserved to the copyright holder.

You could, however, completely redescribe the system (as the OGL
system people did above).

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:08 AM, Louie <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> If you're putting it on the internet it's a good idea. Check out the creative commons licenses; they're easy to use.

Again, there's no such thing as "can" copyright. Copyright is
inherent. Licenses are entirely optional ways of *giving away* some of
those inherent rights.

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Kelvin Jackson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> For clarification: most of my language projects fall into a single umbrella
> conworld, which doesn't yet have a name but could be given one if needed.

I think that you would have stronger protection under *trade dress*
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress) than under copyright, for
this.

Copyright would only prevent someone from reusing your exact words.
Trademark / trade dress would prevent someone from using your conworld
(e.g. publishing another language that purports to be in your
conworld). Of course, this assumes that your conworld is unique enough
to qualify; your only defense with trademarks is that something might
be "confusingly similar to a consumer", so if your world is already
e.g. Tolkienesque then you'd probably not be able to prove prior
uniqueness.

More directly, this is about the legality of fanfiction, which is a
long-disputed topic I don't care to touch. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction

Practically speaking though: nobody will ever care about your conworld
enough to make something commercial based on it, unless you manage to
first do so in a huge way (like Tolkien). So I don't see the point of
worrying about this.

The only thing I can think of that has even come close to this was
when Serali directly stole others' conscripts and marketed them on
fora as her own. She obtained prestige but not commercial benefit.
This was a clear violation of copyright law - one that required no
action on the real conscripters' part.


Another thing to note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow
- ordinary dictionaries, maps, phone books, etc cannot be copyrighted
because they are mere lists of externally true facts. I think it's
arguable whether this would apply to conlang dictionaries. IMO it
wouldn't, because conlang lexicons are in fact creative works, unlike
(say) the word "browser".

However, there's a question for whether they are too trivial to
copyright - individual words cannot be copyrighted (though they can be
trademarked). You would have to convince a court that the lexicon
should be examined as a whole, rather than word-by-word. AFAIK this
has never been tested, so it is an open question.


SUMMARY

IANAL but IMO as having actually read the relevant laws and summaries
of various related cases:

1. Conlangs per se cannot possibly be subject to copyright.
2. Conlang writeups (e.g. grammar sketches) are automatically subject
to copyright. No action is needed other than merely writing it. This
protection can however be completely avoided by rewriting the same
facts in a different form.
3. Conlang names an easily be trademarked, and conworlds are subject
to trade dress. Viz. "Klingon" as a trademarked term, and the Star
Trek universe, characters, etc as protected entities. Viz. also fan
fiction legality.
4. Conlang grammars may be subject to patent, if they are sufficiently
inventive, but this is extremely unlikely a priori. Without a patent,
there is no protection from "knockoffs". Viz. the state of IP rights
in fashion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2FOrx41N0 (excellent
talk, BTW; go watch it now)
5. Attempting to protect a conlang is incredibly stupid if you care at
all about it being used by anyone else. Your enemy is ignorance, not
theft. Viz. the argument laid out in Okrent's book.
6. Commercial entities will demand maximum possible assignment of
rights, including all copyrights, trademark rights, patent rights, and
other exploitation and moral rights, until some entity (e.g. the LCS)
gains enough prestige to negotiate a different deal. This is a matter
of negotiational leverage, not of legal status.

HTH,
- Sai

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September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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