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CONLANG  June 2010, Week 2

CONLANG June 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Con-culture/religion etc.--longish (was OT : atheism)

From:

Lars Finsen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:09:19 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Roger Mills wrote:

> quoting me:
>>
>> Well, religion is something that seems to be typically
>> human, and personally I wouldn't expect it in an alien race.
>> Consider the other intelligent and communicating species we
>> have on this planet, like the higher apes, whales and
>> octopuses. Do they show any sign of religious activity?
>
> We simply don't know, and at present have no way of knowing. But  
> Chimps and Gorillas seem to mourn their dead (as do elephants).  
> Dogs and cats seem to know when one of them, and/or their owner, is  
> gone. That to me would suggest some sort of incipient "religious"  
> feeling, in the broadest sense. Not sure what we might know about  
> dolphins and whales.

That's *very* broad. But what do we actually mean by religion?  
Judging by the different ones we have here on Earth, it seems to be  
common to them that they are cultural, they have to be learnt.  
Objects and/or ideas are held sacred and worshipped collectively.  
Supernatural concepts seem to be universal. Practical advice also  
abundant. Reasons are not given for statements. And there is a tribal  
aspect. You belong to one. Ethnic alignment used to be identical to  
religious alignment, but at some point religions started to live  
their lives separate from ethnicity and started competing for adherents.

If we find alien religions, should we expect them to follow all these  
universals (and have I forgotten some?), and if they lack one or two,  
are they then really religions?

How many of these can we omit without losing the character of religion?

I guess earthly religions can be analysed along several scales, and  
the scales can be extrapolated in either direction to include any  
extraterrestrial religion we may find or imagine. Individualism- 
collectivism, number/potency of gods, expansiveness-exclusiveness,  
spiritualism-materialism, kind and strength of adherence enforcement  
techniques, etc. Alien religions might perform on other scales where  
earthly religions all are located at one end. Or the middle. If so,  
will they still be recognisable as religions?

Den 11. jun. 2010 kl. 16.21 skreiv Dale McCreery:

> I doubt there is any environment that would stop a sentient being from
> thinking about what's out there and the why's of its existence, and  
> living idyllically might give an individual just that much more  
> free time...  And might start to see their nature as supernatural  
> aid in and of itself

What people would do and think in an idyllic situation depends on  
what traditions they had before they arrived at it. If they have  
known no other situation I suspect they would develop a very placid  
life, just enjoying themselves and taking nothing very seriously.  
Individuals may develop more soaring minds perhaps, but wouldn't get  
very much encouragement. How aliens would react in similar situations  
is completely unpredictable, as we have no way of telling what kind  
of character they developed on their way towards civilisation. So  
there is no reason to limit our imaginations in any way when we  
construct a culture for them.

Den 11. jun. 2010 kl. 18.43 skreiv Jörg Rhiemeier:

> I see no reason to assume that religion is something not to expect
> from alien intelligences.

They could have religions, but I see no reason to expect them to. How  
aliens may think or react depends on how they are made up and how  
they work. If they had no contact with us there is no reason why they  
should copy us in any way. Humans have certain peculiarities in  
common that define us and influence our behaviour. All of these are  
results of billions of years of evolution which could have taken  
different paths in thousands of different ways, and if evolution  
works the same way elsewhere in the universe, which we have no  
guarantee that it does, there are millions of ways in which  
intelligent life can develop. Octopuses who communicate with colour  
patterns don't need to develop very much more to catch up with us,  
for example. They are substantially different from us, but if we find  
intelligent life in space I expect they can be things that make an  
octopus look like our half-brother. Or they can be things that look  
and behave surprisingly like us. There is no telling.

They could be omniscient and near omnipotent, close to gods  
themselves and in no need of other divinities. They could lack the  
inherent insecurity and feeling of inferiority typical of the human  
species. They could have egalitarian minds with no instinctive  
hierarchy building techniques. They could be unfamiliar with the  
concept of blame or the difference between good or bad. They could  
have stoic minds that don't get influenced much by perceptions of  
guilt or condemnation. They could have complete, all-encompassing  
empathy. They could lack spirituality altogether or have spiritual  
abilities that make special individuals able to contact the spiritual  
world or receive messages from the gods unnecessary. They could be  
purely instinctive creatures with a civilisation developed in harmony  
with their instincts, thus needing no artificial guidance. They could  
have a non-symbolic culture relying only on plain observation and  
nothing representing either themselves or their environment. Anything  
is possible.

> There is not much evidence for religious
> beliefs in non-human life on Earth - but those lifeforms aren't
> sapient (or if they are, they are in a way incomprehensible to us).

I think we underestimate the sapience of our fellow Earthlings,  
because we don't understand them, yet. None of them are materially  
comparable to us, of course, and that is vital for us who put such  
emphasis on material things. I don't think they are spiritually  
comparable either, but I think that once we get to understand the  
wisdom of the dolphin, the octopus or the ant better, not to mention  
the cat, they will have some surprises for us in hand.

LEF

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