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TEI-L  September 2010

TEI-L September 2010

Subject:

Re: signed vs. salute

From:

"Paul F. Schaffner" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:34:04 -0400

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (433 lines)

Yes, both <signed> and <salute> are defined as a
"salutation". That is the nub of the problem. Nothing
in the definition of <signed> suggests that it serves
only to contain the designation (name and titles)
of the signatory person(s). We prefer to interpret the
definition 'closing salutation' as meaning that <signed>
should contain the entire 'signatory statement,' or claim
of responsibility (as opposed to an attribution of
responsibility, which belongs to <byline>, another issue!).

I think there were a few factors (aside from the 'canonical'
example, i.e. the one actually given in the element definition
of <signed>) that led to our interpretation of <signed> as a container
for all the 'yours truly' sort of phrases (to my mind, 'signing
phrases,' not 'greeting phrases'). The most important
was perhaps that in writing instructions for data-conversion
firms,  I could find no tenable rule by which to tell them to
distinguish between many grammatically and semantically similar
constructions, as splitting them between <signed> and <salute>
seemed to require. E.g.:

(1) Everyone agrees (I think) that the first three examples below
belong entirely in <signed>. But I could see no essential difference
between those and the fourth and fifth examples, which some would
divide between <signed> and <salute>:


#1 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>John</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#2 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>John, lieutenant of the Tower</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#3 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>John, lieutenant of the Tower and servant of God</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#4 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>John, lieutenant, etc., and your obedient servant</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#5 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>Your obedient servant, John, lieutenant of the Tower.</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>


(2) Likewise, I could see no essential difference between phrases,
all descriptive of the signatory, that happened to refer to the
addressee and those that did not. I gather that some would put
the former (#2 below) in <salute> but not the latter (#1 below).
Nor could I see what to do--or how to tell my keyers what to do--when both 
kinds of phrases were combined (#3 below).

#1 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>A Public Servant</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#2 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>Your obedient Servant</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>

#3 <CLOSER>
<SIGNED>A Friend to Humanity and to your Welfare</SIGNED>
</CLOSER>


-- Someone in this thread suggested that every <signed> must contain
    a name (or at least a nom de plume). We tag many abbreviated ones
    that do not, usu.of the form <signed>Yours truly, &c.</signed>
    Surely this falls under the definition of <signed> as 'a closing
    salutation'!


-- Below is a random and generous selection of <signed> tags
    (and a few <salute>s) from the 5,546 found in my current
    review batch. Tag them as you will! See how much variety,
    or unanimity, arises (n.b., you will see that we allow <list> within
    <signed>,  a local customization.)


pfs


Samples
=======

<SIGNED>Jeremiah Rich.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Yours (desirous particularly to be engaged yours
to serve you,) <HI>JOHN LILBURN.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your assured loving friend and servant,
EDWARD WOLBY.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>A Faithfull Servant to all Lovers of
<HI>Musick,</HI> JOHN PLAYFORD.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>Your Lordship</HI>'s <HI>most Faithful and
most Obedient Servant,</HI> Stephen Willoughby.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your servant till Death. <HI>Captaine</HI>
John  Williams.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>From a Sufferer for the Truth and Righteousness sake,
known to many of you by the Name of <HI>Isabel Wails.</HI>
</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>Jo. Radford</HI> Foreman of the Mineral
Grand Jury there, with his fellows.
<LIST>
<ITEM><HI>Walter Webb.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Richard Franke.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Richard Adams.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Jahn Phelps.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Thomas Younge.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>William Dowling.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Alexandor Cuer.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>William Hopkins.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Jonas Lexstond.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>John House.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Richard Ayrer.</HI></ITEM>
</LIST></SIGNED>


<SIGNED>A True Lover of his Countries Honour, <HI>W. W.</HI>
</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>Your most affectionately devoted Brethren in Christ,</HI>
<LIST>
<ITEM>Commissioners of the Church of <HI>Scotland.</HI>
    <LIST>
    <ITEM><HI>Jo. Maitland,</HI></ITEM>
    <ITEM><HI>A. Jhonston,</HI></ITEM>
    <ITEM><HI>Alex. Henderson,</HI></ITEM>
    <ITEM><HI>Sam. Rutherfurd,</HI></ITEM>
    <ITEM><HI>Rob. Bailyie.</HI></ITEM>
    <ITEM><HI>Geo. Gillespie.</HI></ITEM>
    </LIST>
</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>William Twisse,</HI> Prolocutor,</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Cornel. Burges,</HI> Assessor,</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Jo. White,</HI> Assessor,</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Henry Robrough,</HI> Scribe,</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Adoniram Byfield,</HI> Scribe.</ITEM>
</LIST></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>H. Elsynge, Cler. Parl. D. Com.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Wholly and intirely your most affectionate
Kinsman and humble servant. <HI>F. W.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Thy most Affectionate and Faithful Husband,
and their most loving Father, <HI>J. H.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Thy souls well-wisher, <HI>Richard Kentish.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED><LIST>
<ITEM><HI>Adam Samuel Hartman,</HI> Pastor of the Church of <HI>Lesna</HI>
in <HI>Poland,</HI> and Rector of the famous University there.</ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Paul Cyril</HI> a late Member of the Univer&s;ity of
<HI>Ly&s;na.</HI></ITEM></LIST></SIGNED>

<SALUTE>SIR,</SALUTE>
<SIGNED>An Admirer of your indefatigable industry and rare
abilities, JOHN TRAPP.</SIGNED>

<DATELINE>Written in the true fear of the Lord,</DATELINE>
<SIGNED>by me his Servant, Anthony Tompkins.</SIGNED>
<DATELINE><DATE>The 2d day of the 11th Moneth, 68.</DATE></DATELINE>


<SIGNED>Yours, The Inhabitants of the County of Rutland.</SIGNED>

<DATELINE>Written in <HI>York</HI> Castle,</DATELINE>
<SIGNED>by your dear Brother, and lover of your souls, known unto
you by the name of <HI>Samuel Thornton.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your Maiesties faithfull Subiects and Servants.
<LIST>
<ITEM>Earle <HI>Lothian.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Earle <HI>Lindesay.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Lord <HI>Balmerino.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Sir <HI>Thomas Morton.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Sir <HI>Thomas Hope.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Sir <HI>Archibauld Johnston</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Burgesses.</ITEM>
<ITEM>Sir <HI>Iohn Smith.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Master <HI>Robert Barklay.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>Master <HI>Patrick Bell.</HI></ITEM>
</LIST></SIGNED>

<SALUTE>VALE LECTOR, &amp; fruere.</SALUTE>

<SALUTE>Adieu Madam.</SALUTE>

<SIGNED>Your Servant, <HI>&amp;c.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>So help me God. <HI>DANIEL SCARGILL.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your sorrowfull friend, and brother in Christ,
<HI>Thomas Sweet.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your Worships affectionate Kinsman and Servant.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your Lordship's Most Passionate Admirer And Most Devoted
Humble Servant.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your true friend and Cosen, <HI>Nathanael
Warters.</HI></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>We subscribe our selves,
Your Brethren in the Faith and Fellowship of the Gospel,
<LIST>
<ITEM><HI>William Kiffin,</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>George Barrett,</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Robert Steed,</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM><HI>Edward Man.</HI></ITEM>
</LIST></SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Thine to serve thee for the Publike good, G.  A.</SIGNED>

<SALUTE>>MY LORD!</SALUTE>
<SIGNED>Your <HI>Highness,</HI> though unknown, yet most
humble servant.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>From thy Friend, and all Peoples, In Sincerity
and Truth,</HI> Thomas Rudd.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>one</HI> of the meanest of Your Servants for
Christ, and this Commonwealth. <HI>JO. ROGERS.</HI></SIGNED>


<SIGNED>Your affectionate fellow Apprentices of Bridge
Ward within.</SIGNED>
<DATELINE><HI>Dated</HI> <DATE>the 17 <HI>of</HI> May, 1649. <HI>the
first year of Englands hopeful Restauration, through the blessing of
God, to its primitive Liberty.</HI></DATE></DATELINE>


<SALUTE>My Lord, </SALUTE>
<SIGNED><HI>Your Most Humble and Most Obedient Servants,
the Agents General of the Clergy of</HI> France. <HI>The Abbot</HI>
de VILLARS. <HI>The Abbot</HI> PHILYPEA&V;X.</SIGNED>
<DATELINE><HI>Paris</HI> <DATE>this <HI>2d. of</HI> October,
<HI>1688.</HI></DATE></DATELINE>

<SIGNED>By the Contriver of the Citizens Protestation,
here following.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED><HI>Yours unfeignedly, in the right way of the Gospel
to serve you faithfully, according to my measure in the things
of Jesus Christ,</HI> THO: LAMBE.</SIGNED>


<SALUTE>(SIR,)</SALUTE>
<SIGNED>Your most affectionate Friend, heartily to serve you
[being yet as much an English man as ever I was] <HI>JOHN LILBURN,
Semper idem</HI></SIGNED>
<DATELINE>From my delightfull dwelling in Bruges,
<DATE>Saturday, Novemb. the 9. 1652. New stile.</DATE></DATELINE>
<TRAILER>The End.</TRAILER>


<SIGNED><HI>I subscribe myself Your Fellow-Citizen,</HI>
A FRIEND TO HUMANITY.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your servant, S--l C--h, forever.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>THOMAS GORDON, Attorney in fact for WILLIAM
CUNNINGHAM &amp; Co.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>WM. GIBBONS, <HI>President and Delegate from Chatham.</HI>
</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Thomas Gozaeus a Bellomonte, sacrae Theologiae
Professor, &amp; authoritate Pontificis librorum approbator.</SIGNED>

<SIGNED>Your Honours obliged servant though unworthiest
among the Ministers of Christ. <HI>THO. MARRIOT.</HI></SIGNED>


======================


On Fri, 10 Sep 2010, Veit (Weber-Gesamtausgabe) wrote:

> Hi Torsten,
> thanks a lot for this summary of the discussion - but from my point of view I 
> would not fully consent:
> 1. ok: <salute/> and <signed/> should be "wrapped in"-elements
> 2. also ok! But if your text is the "greeting expression" I would argue that:
>
> <closer>
> <salute>I am your most humble servant</salute>
> <signed>Joseph Wanton Jr</signed>
> </closer>
>
> is much clearer than:
>
> <signed>Thine to command
> <name type="person">Humph. Moseley</name>
> </signed>
>
> because "Thine to command" is a typical greeting formula, not a part of a 
> "signed" (and even if some persons use the "humble servant" as part of the 
> "signing formula" I would prefer to split these things up).
> If you want to specify the name of the person I would use:
>
> <closer>
> <salute>I am your most humble servant</salute>
> <signed><persName key="xxxx"/>Joseph Wanton Jr</persName></signed>
> </closer>
>
> or
> <closer>
> <salute>I am your most humble servant</salute>
> <signed><name type="person" key="xxxx"/>Joseph Wanton Jr</name></signed>
> </closer>
>
> But the definition on the TEI-page confirms your version because it says 
> that<signed>  contains "the closing salutation" - but that's strange, because 
> what is<salute>  if it is not a "salutation"? or which is the place to split 
> off a salutation in "beginning" and "final"?
> And in that case you would need something like
> <closer>
>   <p>Please give many greetings to all your friends and stay convinced 
> that</p>
>   <salute>I am your most humble servant</salute>
>   <signed>....</signed>
> </closer>
>
> - and that would be wrong because<p>  is not allowed within the 
> closer-element!
>
> So perhaps the definitions need to be more explicit??
>
> I regret if that doesn't help to solve the question...
> Yours,
> Joachim
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 10.09.10 10:05, schrieb Torsten Schassan:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>>> don't see any need for a new attribute. @rend allows CSS values;
>>> @rendition encourages CSS values. And both allow for other values for
>>> things that cannot be expressed using CSS.
>> I very much second John's argument especially as I think about further
>> problems defining *which* version of css the @tei:css will represent or
>> would we need @tei:css2, @tei:css21, and @tei:css3?
>> 
>> 
>> If I tried to summarize the original discussion would we agree on
>> 
>> 1.<salute>  and<signed>  especially when they appear together should be
>> wrapped in<opener>/<closer>;
>> 
>> 2.<salute>  contains text that addresses another person respectively the
>> greeting expression while<signed>  represents the writing person;
>> 
>> 3. if (2.) is valid, the use of<name>  inside<signed>  would be very
>> much recommended?
>> 
>> The *quintessential* examples would be for<signed>
>> 
>> <signed>Thine to command
>>   <name type="person">Humph. Moseley</name>
>> </signed>
>> 
>> and
>> 
>> <closer>
>>   <signed>I am your most humble servant
>>    <name>Joseph Wanton Jr</name>
>>   </signed>
>> </closer>
>> 
>> rather than
>> 
>> <closer>
>>   <salute>I am your most humble servant</salute>
>>   <signed>Joseph Wanton Jr</signed>
>> </closer>
>> 
>> 
>> For<salute>
>> 
>> <closer>
>>   <salute>Dear sir,</salute>
>>   <signed>your most obedient servant,
>>    <name>J. Smith</name>
>>   </signed>
>> </closer>
>> 
>> 
>> Any objections (especially from the Correspondence SIG) to that summary?
>> Would that qualify for a SourceForge ticket?
>> 
>> Best, Torsten
>> 
>> - -- Torsten Schassan
>> Digitale Editionen
>> Abteilung Handschriften und Sondersammlungen
>> Herzog August Bibliothek, Postfach 1364, D-38299 Wolfenbuettel
>> Tel.: +49-5331-808-130 (Fax -165), schassan {at} hab.de
>> 
>> http://www.hab.de/forschung/projekte/europeana-regia.htm
>> http://www.hab.de/forschung/projekte/weiss64.htm
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>> 
>> iD8DBQFMiea6q4nZEP2KS4QRAg5gAJ4ij51wgUog6PfpddWlqMICzgW0gACghuWV
>> GzViZWcQFdd+YwOGS7VDK2Y=
>> =tXvJ
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schaffner | [log in to unmask] | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/
316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190
--------------------------------------------------------------------

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