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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 1

CONLANG September 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:51:59 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

I am combining my responses to Patrick and Garth here:


On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I wrote:

> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
> >
> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) --
> no
> > IPA
>
> Circle with a dot in it?  If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
> could put a comma under it.


Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.


> > 0\ is standard CSX for a bilabial click -- K uses m! (IIRC) -- IPA uses
> > target
>
> Ahh, yeah.
>
> > |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> > (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> > !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K
> uses
> > t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
> > =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC)
> --
> > IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
>
> Looks like a pipe to me.


What does?


> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
> pipe
> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> > else would use!
>
> maybe a superscript small L.


Maybe.


> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
> tongue
> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>
> I can't do that without pain.



Why do I hear things like this so often.  Is my tongue really that
gymnastic?


> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
> probably
> > says no such beast exists
>
> Yeah, no sign for that in IPA.  One of the problems I have with it is
> that a click uses suction in the mouth and there isn't much space once
> I restrict at the velum to create enough suction for anything but a
> sucking/choking sound.  Again, a bit of pain.
>
What?  No, it's a loud, medium-high pitched, hollow sound.  No pain is
involved. It can be done many times in rapid succession.


> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>
> I'm not sure this is physically possible.



The my description is off, because I do it quite easily and loudly.



> >
> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
> shoddy
> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
>
> I'd have to hear them.  Hell, I'd probably have to see a spectrogram
> of them.  :)  Not that that'd do much good; I'm awful at reading
> spectrograms.
>
>
Wish I could oblige on both counts.


>
> > Any way this bizarre mess is the total phoneme enventory of the language.
> > Suggestions for better descriptions and/or representations of the
> phonemes
> > would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Well, if it's the whole phoneme inventory, you can do without the !'s,
> it seems to me.


What do you mean"do without the !'s"?  That's part of the Khoisanist
transscription method, just like the \ is part of the CXS transscription.


> >
> > Next post I will show the revamped romanization I plan to use now, which
> > will necessatate a name change.
> >
> > Adam
> >
>
> I look forward to seeing some of the grammar.
>
> Heh heh.  So do I actually.  I can't find any grammatical notes on this
language.  If I ever had any, I seem to have lost them.  All I can come up
with is the list of phonemes with a horrifying "romanization" and a list of
character names.  I'll have to come up with a suitable insectiod grammar
soon.

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Garth Wallace <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > |\ is standard CSX for dental click -- K uses t-with-dental-subscript!
> > (IIRC) -- IPA uses pipe
> > !\ is standard CSX for alveolar (some term this retroflex) click -- K
> uses
> > t! (IIRC) -- IPA uses !
>
> ! is postalveolar, I think. You'd probably use the pipe for both, but
> with the dental diacritic (flat-side-up underbracket in IPA, _d in
> CXS) applied to the first one.


Ah, I believe you are right. So !_d\ and !\ might need to be seprate
phonemes.


> > =\ is standard CSX for palatal click -- K uses c! (tired of typing IIRC)
> --
> > IPA uses double crossed dagger (or double crossed pipe, not sure)
> > |\|\ is standard CSX for lateral click -- K uses l! -- IPA uses double
> pipe
> > |\|\_2 is my cludge for a bilateral click -- Lord only knows what anyone
> > else would use!
>
> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
> accomplish the former.



Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue in
a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of the
simple lateral release.  as for there never being a distinction between
simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use here.



> > =`\_- is my cludge for a retroflex click in which the bottom of the
> tongue
> > contacts the palat0-alveolar region -- ditto above
>
> I think you'd just use the postalveolar click symbol.
>
I think you're right. /!`\/ is a better symbol.



> > =\_G is my cludge for a velar click -- K might use k! (???) -- IPA
> probably
> > says no such beast exists
> > =\_? is my cludge for an epiglottal click -- K could get by with
> > crossed-question-mark! (?!) -- IA surely is throwing tomatoes at me now.
>
> I don't think these can exist. The place of articulation must be
> between the airstream mechanism (velar, for clicks) and the outside
> air, or no sound is produced.


They do exist.  I make them.  I just figure my description is off the mark.


> > I'm quite sure that 0_0 and |\|\_2 and =`\_- are real clicks (however
> shoddy
> > my representation of them might be), but I'm not quite so sure that the
> > other two qualify as bonafide clicks.
> >
> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
> > "popping" sound ensues.
> >
> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis
> to
> > make a vacuum.  The closure is released and a sound like that used in
> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
>
> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
>
No.  Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think.  =\_G (which I now think
would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive /k/
as is |\ from implosive /t/.  the POA's are the same, but the implosives
have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just pop
like any click.  They aren't breathy.  They don't work from the diaphram.
I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.

For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue as
for /k/. Lower the glottis.  Release the oral closure.  The resulting sound
is a popping noise.  That is what I am trying to write.

For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound is
significantly lower in pitch.

I really thing phonetic discriptions only work for sounds you already know
how to make, or have at least heard.

Adam

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October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
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March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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