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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2010, Week 1

CONLANG September 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)

From:

John Vertical <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:52:18 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>
>>> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I think
>>> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
>>> >
>>> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w! (??) --
>>> > no IPA
>>>
>>> Circle with a dot in it?  If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
>>> could put a comma under it.
>>
>> Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
>> rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.
>
>Yes, but the diacritic specifically makes it rounded.

_0 is the "voiceless" diacritic. There is a _O (capital o, not zero)
diacritic which means "more rounded", but I think that's for vowels (IPA
subscript right half-ring). Regular old _w should be the most legible choice
here.

(There's a guy on the ZBB whose avatar is "I O\_w IPA" - in actual IPA
'fcors...)


>>> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
>>> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
>>> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
>>> accomplish the former.
>>
>> Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue in
>> a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of the
>> simple lateral release.  as for there never being a distinction between
>> simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
>> finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use here.
>
>I'm still not sure what you mean by it. If I cram my tongue over to
>one side of my mouth so the air only passes on one side, it doesn't
>really sound any different.

I'd bet the "bilateral" one is an ingressiv lateral *trill*. Not sure if
it's a click (velaric ingressiv), an implosiv (glottalic ingressiv), or even
a pulmonic ingressiv. Anyway, the consonant I'm thinking of sounds like
Donald Duck (or perhaps Daffy) and doesn't really have an oral release: it
can be held as long as there's air - not much if it's done as a click, a
little longer if an implosiv, quite long if pulmonic.

For CXS, the best kludge I can think of would be |\|\r) (but this may be a
good place to breik out the ad hoc symbol, ie. $.)

BTW, I notice you do not describe the type of the dorsal release of the
clicks. Plain [k] then, I presume?

>>> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while lowering
>>> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
>>> > "popping" sound ensues.
>>> >
>>> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the glottis
>>> > to make a vacuum.  The closure is released and a sound like that used in
>>> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
>>> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
>>> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
>>> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
>>>
>> No.  Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think.  =\_G (which I now think
>> would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive /k/
>> as is |\ from implosive /t/.  the POA's are the same, but the implosives
>> have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just pop
>> like any click.  They aren't breathy.  They don't work from the diaphram.
>> I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.
>
>Voiceless implosives shouldn't be breathy. The lungs aren't involved.
>Voiced implosives sometimes have some exhalation involved AIUI, but
>voiceless ones have full closure at the glottis.
>
>> For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue as
>> for /k/. Lower the glottis.  Release the oral closure.  The resulting sound
>> is a popping noise.  That is what I am trying to write.
>>
>> For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
>> tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound is
>> significantly lower in pitch.
>
>Yeah, those are definitely both implosives. If you're creating a
>pressure differential by closing and lowering the glottis, that's
>glottalic ingressive, by definition.

Yep. Your previous description of what you've though as implosivs as having
a "gulp" of air sounds like you're thinking of pulmonic ingressivs.

Anyway, /k_< ?\_</ (no need to follo the IPA ban on applying implosivity to
voiceless base consonants) should cover you here.

As an aside, the reverse of these sounds - hold the oral/epiglottal closure,
release the glottal closure "inwards" - makes for a pretty convincing
bassdrum imitation. Intersperse with some affricates like /ts_>/ for a dance
beat :)

(tho beatboxers usually seem to use bilabial clicks for the bass)

John Vertical

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