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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 1

CONLANG September 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: And/or

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:51:21 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

In Carrajina, _aut_ lives on as _jud_ maening _or_, while _vel_ countinues
as _veu_ meaning _eventhough_, _though_, _thus_, _yet_.

Adam

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:03 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Alex Fink wrote:
> [snip]
>
>
>> Anyway, there are no uncontroversial examples of natlangs
>> with the ior vs. xor distinction.  Latin _aut_ vs. _vel_
>> is often cited: _aut_ is supposed to be exclusive, _vel_
>> inclusive; but I think better the story that goes _A aut B_ means "A or B,
>> it matters which", and _A vel B_ means
>> "A or B, it doesn't matter which", where the "or" in the
>> glosses doesn't care about clusivity.
>>
>
> That's about it, I think - at least as regards the general trend.
>
> Under _aut_, the Lewis & Short dictionary says:
> "In general it puts in the place of a previous assertion another,
> objectively and absolutely antithetical to it, while _vel_ indicates that
> the contrast rests upon subjective opinion or choice, i.e. _aut_ is
> objective, _vel_ subjective, or _aut_ excludes one term, _vel_ makes the two
> indifferent."
>
> OK - _aut_ excludes one term, but then so, normally, does _vel_; but in the
> case of _vel_ I'm indifferent as to the choice.  If I'm going to buy a
> burger or a hot dog for myself and friend and there's plenty each available
> (and I ask him in Latin!0, I'd probably use _vel_. But if the only two
> remaining items were one burger and one hot dog, where in English I'd say
> "Do you want the burger or the hot dog?" then the choice has obvious
> implications for me as well and I'd use _aut_.
>
> Under _vel_, Lewis and Short say:
> ".. disjunctive conjunction to introduce an alternative or preference, or
> as not affecting the principal assertion."
>
> _vel_ is indeed derived from the root vel- ~ vol- that we find in the verb
> _volo, velle, volui_ "to wish, want". i.e. _vel_ had the idea "what you
> will".
>
> BUT - things are never that simple in a natlang   ;)
>
> In treating the various different uses of _vel_, Lewis and Short give
> examples where _vel_ is used with the *same use* as _aut_ above; they also
> give examples where the disjunctive meaning is very weak and the conjunction
> practically means "and". Maybe that's the source of the assertion that _vel_
> = IOR.  It doesn't.  It covers a range of meanings, mainly XOR, in fact,
> where the choice is not so important (but sometimes it is) to just plain
> AND.
>
> Lewis and Short give examples where _either....or_ is expressed by
> _aut....vel_ and others where it is _vel .... aut_      :)
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>

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