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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 1

CONLANG September 2010, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Welcome to Clickistan (or the terrors of Xt! phonology)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:55:48 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (153 lines)

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:52 AM, John Vertical <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> I wrote:
> >>
> >>> > Now I will give some explination of these horrid symbols and what I
> think
> >>> > *might* be their representatins in a Khoisanist approach:
> >>> >
> >>> > 0_0 is a kiss, a rounded bilabial click -- Koisanist might use w!
> (??) --
> >>> > no IPA
> >>>
> >>> Circle with a dot in it?  If you wanted to emphasize the rounding, you
> >>> could put a comma under it.
> >>
> >> Well, as I understand it, circle-with-a-dot-in-it is specifically not
> >> rounded, i.e. more like an <m> than a kiss -- a lip smack, if you will.
> >
> >Yes, but the diacritic specifically makes it rounded.
>
> _0 is the "voiceless" diacritic. There is a _O (capital o, not zero)
> diacritic which means "more rounded", but I think that's for vowels (IPA
> subscript right half-ring). Regular old _w should be the most legible
> choice
> here.
>
>
Oops.  I'll fix that.


> (There's a guy on the ZBB whose avatar is "I O\_w IPA" - in actual IPA
> 'fcors...)
>
>
LOL


> >>> What do you mean "bilateral"? I don't think there's ever a distinction
> >>> between a lateral in which the air passes on only one side of the
> >>> tongue vs. one where it passes on both. I'm not even sure how you'd
> >>> accomplish the former.
> >>
> >> Well, by bi-lateral, I mean suction released on both sides of the tongue
> in
> >> a sloppy suction-stopped kind of noise vs. the giddap tsch-tsch sound of
> the
> >> simple lateral release.  as for there never being a distinction between
> >> simple lateral and my bilateral in human languages -- that is why I am
> >> finding it hard to give a phonetic transcription of the sounds in use
> here.
> >
> >I'm still not sure what you mean by it. If I cram my tongue over to
> >one side of my mouth so the air only passes on one side, it doesn't
> >really sound any different.
>
> I'd bet the "bilateral" one is an ingressiv lateral *trill*. Not sure if
> it's a click (velaric ingressiv), an implosiv (glottalic ingressiv), or
> even
> a pulmonic ingressiv. Anyway, the consonant I'm thinking of sounds like
> Donald Duck (or perhaps Daffy) and doesn't really have an oral release: it
> can be held as long as there's air - not much if it's done as a click, a
> little longer if an implosiv, quite long if pulmonic.
>
>
Nope.  Nothing like Donald Duck.  The sound lasts a fraction of a second.



> For CXS, the best kludge I can think of would be |\|\r) (but this may be a
> good place to breik out the ad hoc symbol, ie. $.)
>
> BTW, I notice you do not describe the type of the dorsal release of the
> clicks. Plain [k] then, I presume?
>
>

Yes, I think so.


>  >>> > =\_G is formed by raising the tongue into position for /k/ while
> lowering
> >>> > the glottis to make a vacuum. The "k" closure is released and a loud
> >>> > "popping" sound ensues.
> >>> >
> >>> > =\_? is made by forming a closure as for />\/ while lowering the
> glottis
> >>> > to make a vacuum.  The closure is released and a sound like that used
> in
> >>> > cartoons to represent drinking (only unvoiced) is produced.
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like you're describing a glottal ingressive airstream.
> >>> Voiceless implosives or reverse ejectives in other words. There aren't
> >>> dedicated IPA symbols for these anymore, but you can apply the
> >>> voicelessness diacritic to the implosive series.
> >>>
> >> No.  Not a voiceless implosive, I don't think.  =\_G (which I now think
> >> would be better written as !_G\) is just as different from an implosive
> /k/
> >> as is |\ from implosive /t/.  the POA's are the same, but the implosives
> >> have audible intakes of air after them, these sounds don't; they just
> pop
> >> like any click.  They aren't breathy.  They don't work from the
> diaphram.
> >> I'm not sure how to better describe these sounds.
> >
> >Voiceless implosives shouldn't be breathy. The lungs aren't involved.
> >Voiced implosives sometimes have some exhalation involved AIUI, but
> >voiceless ones have full closure at the glottis.
> >
> >> For /!-G\/ (or whatever the trasscription should be) position the tongue
> as
> >> for /k/. Lower the glottis.  Release the oral closure.  The resulting
> sound
> >> is a popping noise.  That is what I am trying to write.
> >>
> >> For !_?\ the same process happens but it is the uvular region where the
> >> tongue makes contact with the roof of the mouth and the resultan sound
> is
> >> significantly lower in pitch.
> >
> >Yeah, those are definitely both implosives. If you're creating a
> >pressure differential by closing and lowering the glottis, that's
> >glottalic ingressive, by definition.
>
> Yep. Your previous description of what you've though as implosivs as having
> a "gulp" of air sounds like you're thinking of pulmonic ingressivs.
>
> Anyway, /k_< ?\_</ (no need to follo the IPA ban on applying implosivity to
> voiceless base consonants) should cover you here.
>
>
Okay.  I'm not sure this is exactly what is happening, but I guess it will
do, untill I have an expert in front of me to listen to the sounds.


> As an aside, the reverse of these sounds - hold the oral/epiglottal
> closure,
> release the glottal closure "inwards" - makes for a pretty convincing
> bassdrum imitation. Intersperse with some affricates like /ts_>/ for a
> dance
> beat :)
>
> (tho beatboxers usually seem to use bilabial clicks for the bass)
>
> John Vertical
>


LOL

Adam

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