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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 2

CONLANG September 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: How did English <u> get /U/ and /V/?

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:06:30 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (44 lines)

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:47:42 -0400, John Vertical <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:06:21 +0100, David McCann wrote:
>>This is a good example of the falsity of the Neogrammarian theory. If
>>English were an ancient, imperfectly attested language, we would explain
>>the contrast of "butcher" [bUt] and "butter" [bat] as dialect mixture.
>>But we cannot have a rule that /U/ remains after a labial, making
>>"butter" a loan, because there is no English dialect from which it could
>>be borrowed (having [pat] for "put"). And we cannot explain all cases
>>of /U/ after a labial as loanwords from the north ()
>
>I'm really not sure what are you trying to get at here. Are you suggesting
>that the neogrammarian theory is somehow unable to account for a sound
>change which changes A to B except in environment C? This is clearly false,
>we could eg. describe a multi-stage process such as:
>1) U > V
>2) Near labials, V > U
>But I'm not sure why "_except C" is a disallowed condition anyway. I thought
>the Neogrammarian theory is "sound change is regular", not "sound change
>cannot be reversed" (the latter only holds as a consequence when the change
>in question involves a merger), with no particular stance on the mecanisms
>of dispersal of changes thruout the speaker base.

I don't see a sensible way to draw a bright line between
Neogrammarianly-acceptable changes and ones that aren't, anyway; there's a
sorites problem.  Changes with a single exception ought to be allowed, okay;
how about two? three? ... a change with an exception for the phonological
shape of every word in which, in reality, it sporadically failed to happen
for whatever chance reason?

In any event, the [U]-retention rule as I have it in my head is that [U] is
retained when following a labial *and preceding [l] or a postalveolar*, or
in any situation following [w] (which is rare, there was a historical *wu
constraint at some point).  That's better: "mush" is in, there's not some
exception about /m/; others are out.  But it's still not exceptionless, e.g.
"much" (which has other irregularities: the stressed vowel ought to've been
[I] by regular development; and why no <t> in the spelling?).  

(I suspect I learned that formulation from Rosenfelder originally, 
  http://zompist.com/spell.html rule 29a.)

Alex

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