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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 2

CONLANG September 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Possibly the simplest possible self-segregating morphology

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:51:43 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

On 13/09/2010 13:02, Jim Henry wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 2:28 AM, R A
> Brown<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> On 12/09/2010 23:53, Jim Henry wrote:
>>> And the reverse is probably true as well.
>
>> IMO the reverse is definitely true. IMO the Huffman
>> coding scheme of 'Plan B' is not human-friendly - but
>> it's simple to program.
>
> Even within the Huffman coding solution space, it would
> be trivial to come up with a solution that's equally easy
> to code as Plan B, but significantly easier for humans to
> parse

Yes, indeed - I've done it   ;)

> (though still probably nowhere near as easy to
> parse as those that involve fixed-length morphemes, or
> subsets of initial and terminal phonemes or syllables).
> For instance, plosives occur at the beginning of
> one-syllable morphemes, fricatives at the beginning of
> two-syllable morphemes, etc.

Agreed - I don't a Huffman coding solution (i.e. initial 
sound/syllable determines morpheme length) is ever going 
feel 'natural' to humans.

> Something that we haven't discussed here recently,
> though, is *how and when* a self-segregating morphology
> is or would be helpful.  Of course it would make text in
> an engelang easier to parse with software than that of
> any natlang, or even fairly regular conlangs without SSM
> such as Esperanto.

I'm told in fact, that Esperanto is not particular easy 
language to write a parser for.  But I admit I've not tried it.

As far as self-segregating morphemes are concerned, it 
depends upon the language. I know when I was learning 
Speedwords in the late 1950s I found it quite confusing not 
being able to spot morpheme boundaries. I think in 
briefscripts and certain types of engelang it is helpful for 
_humans_ to know unambiguously where morpheme boundaries occur.

> But, as Logan pointed out upthread,
> humans are really good at pattern-recognition, and
> usually identify the morpheme boundaries in languages
> they're familiar with without problems, even in languages
> that present a lot of ambiguities to a typical software
> parser.

Yes, agreed. Certainly if one is aiming to produce a 
naturalistic looking artlang self-segregating morphemes are 
not wanted. As I said above, it depends on the language.

> When and how and how much would SSM make things
> easier for humans?

When learning Speedwords    ;)

>> From my experience, I'd suggest that it's most likely
>> to be helpful
> for intermediate learners, who've already learned the
> syntax and morphology of the conlang fairly well, but
> whose vocabulary is still small.  People talk about the
> ambiguous parses of Esperanto compound words, but in my
> experience such words are almost never ambiguous *in
> context*, for a fluent speaker.

Yep - in context _kataro_ (group of cats) is hardly likely 
to be confused with _kataro_ (catarrh).

[snip]
>
> It's for a less fluent learner, whose vocabulary is still
> small, that being able to ambiguously parse unfamiliar
> words into their component morphemes before looking up
> all the unfamiliar morphemes would save time and reduce
> uncertainty.  A few years ago, when I was learning
> Volapük, I said this in the course of a conversation with
> a friend who was also learning it:

I can well imagine that in Volapük, where words can grow 
quite long, it would be useful know unambiguously where 
morpheme boundaries occur.

[snip]
>
> On the other hand, for a real-time spoken-language
> situation -- a conversation or lecture, for instance --
> I'm not sure any SSM scheme more complex than
> fixed-length morphemes would give a significant edge over
> general human pattern-recognition abilities.  One would
> have to experiment to find out.

You may well be correct. Piashi (which I've now abandoned) 
was going to have fixed-length morphemes.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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