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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Celticity? (was: Teresa Edgerton conlangs)

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:33:47 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

On 23 September 2010 11:51, Lars Finsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Den 23. sep. 2010 kl. 10.17 skreiv R A Brown:
>
>>
>> It seems to be a general feeling that there is a 'celticity' about the
>> following:
>> Nésadach anadi duidon!
>> Nésadach anadi galadon!
>> Nésadach ôni anadi ellidon ei odeidon,
>> ei deinach ôni uilé riholem éireamhóinen!
>>
>> Why?
>>
>
> It looks somewhat like Gaelic, I guess. It's only a very superficial visual
> resemblance, but the impression we get through our eyes is important to us
> people, you know. It's the fadas and the -achs that do it, I think.
>
>
Ditto here.


>
>  Does the following have the air of 'celticity' or not?
>> Friko bras a zo hiviz e ti Tad-kozh. Pedet eo bet gantañ e vugale hag e
>> vugale-vihan. Mamm-gozh he deus poazhet daou gilhog er forn.
>>
>
> It's Breton for "The great wedding-party is today at grandpa's house. His
> children and grandchildren have been invited. Grandma has cooked two
> cockerels on the oven."
>
> Fun! I still remember a bit of this.
> (Should be hiziv in place of hiviz, I think.)
>
>
Funny how Breton looks so "unceltic" in its orthography :) . It looks
neither like Welsh (no vocalic w and y, no ll) nor like Scottish or Irish
Gaelic (hardly any vocalic digraphs or trigraphs, no accent).


> You keep quoting this:
>
>>
>> "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a magic bag, into
>> which anything may be put, and out of which almost anything
>> may come. ... Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic
>> twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of
>> the reason."
>>
>
> Do you disagree with the definition of Gaelic, Manx, Welsh, Cornish, Breton
> and Gaulish as Celtic? What about Lepontic and Celtiberian? And there are
> some that are more questionable, but may have some affiliation.
>
>
I don't think the issue is about "Celtic" as the name of a language
subfamily. The fact that all those languages are related is quite well
proven.


> Do you think that artifacts made by people who speak a language defined as
> Celtic should not be called Celtic?
>
>
There lies the problem. By calling artifacts made by Gauls or by Irish
Gaelic speakers uniformly "Celtic", one creates the impression of a single
common culture among those people, which AFAIK didn't exist. There isn't a
single "Celtic" identity, no commonality between the various "Celtic" folks
besides related languages. the various Celtic-speaking populations have
always been very isolated from each other (some say that even during the
original time Indo-Europeans arrived in Western Europe and the British
Isles, Q-Celtic speakers and P-Celtic speakers were already separate waves
of migration with no contact with each other). "Celtic", in the popular
meaning of the word, is a very modern construction that stems from a heavily
romanticised view of the time when the British Isles were not dominated yet
by Anglo-Saxons.

As a linguistic term, "Celtic" is a handy label for an Indo-European
language subfamily that we know exists (although the details might still be
a bit hazy). As an anthropological term it has no value whatsoever, and is
even harmful in creating an illusion of similarity and continuity that just
does not exist.
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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