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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Celticity?

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:17:18 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

On 23/09/2010 10:51, Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 23. sep. 2010 kl. 10.17 skreiv R A Brown:
>>
>> It seems to be a general feeling that there is a
>> 'celticity' about the following:
>> Nésadach anadi duidon!
>> Nésadach anadi galadon!
>> Nésadach ôni anadi ellidon ei odeidon,
>> ei deinach ôni uilé riholem éireamhóinen!
>>
>> Why?
>
> It looks somewhat like Gaelic, I guess. It's only a very
> superficial visual resemblance, but the impression we get
> through our eyes is important to us people, you know. It's
> the fadas and the -achs that do it, I think.
>
> But Sindarin sure is what it looks like the most!

That's interesting. Tolkien, in fact, did not like the 
Gaelic languages and found them ugly. Sindarin owes nothing 
to them; but it does obviously have a Welsh resonance. But 
one the ingredients of Sindarin is also Old English, and 
that seems to be overlooked.

It seems to work like: Sindarin has a Welsh feel; Welsh is 
Celtic, therefore Sindarin has a Celtic feel.

The -ach ending, of course, could also be an echo of Welsh. 
Both _ellidon_ and _galadon_ 'feel' Welsh or Sindarin. But 
_éireamhóinen_ doesn't; in fact it looks distinctly 
Irish/Gaelic, even to the point of apparently obeying the 
'broad to broad and slender to slender' rule   ;)
>
>> Does the following have the air of 'celticity' or not?
>> Friko bras a zo hiviz e ti Tad-kozh. Pedet eo bet gantañ e
>> vugale hag e vugale-vihan. Mamm-gozh he deus poazhet daou
>> gilhog er forn.
>
> It's Breton for "The great wedding-party is today at
> grandpa's house. His children and grandchildren have been
> invited. Grandma has cooked two cockerels on the oven."

Darn it!  You've given the game away     ;)

> Fun! I still remember a bit of this.
> (Should be hiziv in place of hiviz, I think.)

You're correct. A touch of dyslexia on my part! Yes, it 
comes from "Herve ha Nora" book 2.

But what I was hoping was that some, at least, would object 
that _k_ and _z_ and _zh_ ain't Celtic.

Would anyone have spotted the 'un-Celtic' perfect tense with 
"to have" + past participle (Hey! Isn't the proper Celtic 
thing "after" + verbnoun!)?

I guess I should've done a sort of Bretonish conlang.

>
> You keep quoting this:
>>
>> "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a magic bag, into
>> which anything may be put, and out of which almost anything
>> may come. ... Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic
>> twilight, which is not so much a twilight of the gods as of
>> the reason."
>
> Do you disagree with the definition of Gaelic, Manx, Welsh,
> Cornish, Breton and Gaulish as Celtic?

It would, in my opinion, have been better if Edward Lhuyd 
had chosen a more suitable name way back in the 18th 
century.  But, I guess, whatever name he chose would 
probably have suffered the same fate as 'Celtic' did during 
the Romantic movement.

Now the name has stuck and any attempt to name this 
sub-branch of IE differently is doomed to failure. One of 
things that bugs me, however, is the assumption that the 
peculiarities of the Insular Celtic languages are features 
of the Celtic sub-branch of IE as a whole. In fact what we 
know of ancient Gaulish seems to contradict that.

> What about Lepontic
> and Celtiberian? And there are some that are more
> questionable, but may have some affiliation.

Presumably the are members of the same sub-family.

> Do you think that artifacts made by people who speak a
> language defined as Celtic should not be called Celtic?

As the term Celtic is now well established for these 
languages, there's no point in doing otherwise.

But I do find it annoying when people write, for example, as 
though the ancient Brits and ancient Irish felt themselves 
kindred people sharing a common culture.  It just ain't 
true.  The ancient Brits experienced the Irish as alien 
pirates and raiders much like the Saxons.

No one in ancient times ever referred to the inhabitants of 
Britain or Ireland as Celts. It wasn't till the 18th century 
they were so named - and since then all sorts of nonsense 
has appeared which Tolkien objected to - and so do I.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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