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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Tone death

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:49:55 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

Well, technological advancement is probably irrelevant.  Languages
change.  It's part of their nature.  And they change *fast,* faster
than most people realize.  World English, for example, as a second
language has changed to fit people's native phonologies.  If anything,
technological advancement has sped up that process.  (I wouldn't be
surprised if a generation of people in the U.S. who grew up playing
online roleplaying games with people from Singapore started using
"lah" as a discourse marker.  That hasn't happened yet, but it
wouldn't surprise me if it did)



2010/9/23 Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>:
> A few thoughts:
>
> In this age of technological advancement, how high are standards for second-language acquisition? How likely is a language to change its entire structure to accommodate foreign learners anymore?
>
> Not to challenge your idea for FWC, but just a question it raised in my mind.
>
> As for how certain sounds would decompose, refer to past periods of Korean/Japanese borrowing, and to the development of the Indian Prakrits.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 23 Sep 2010, at 04:26, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> It isn't that straightforward. Grammatical inflection is not marked, but to
>>> a native speaker "àirén" doesn't simply decompose into "love + person", but
>>> rather "loved (passive participle) + person", vs. "aixin" which decomposes
>>> into "loving (active participle) + heart" = "compassion, kindliness".
>>>
>>> As for the other "airen" of a different tone (presumably the first, i.e.
>>> āirén), it wouldn't mean "hurt person", but would depend on which strand of
>>> etymology you go by, because there is no such stock word/phrase. Assuming
>>> Classical Chinese origin, it would mean "grieving person, bereaved".*
>>> Assuming an origin in e.g. Southern Min, it would mean "person with many
>>> regrets".
>>>
>>> My point is, written Chinese has had influences from so many languages of
>>> the different regions of China that it is difficult to impute standard
>>> meanings to its morphemes or words based on Modern Standard Mandarin alone,
>>> because written MSM is still heavily influenced, especially among the more
>>> historically/classically trained, by the classical language, which is
>>> something quite opaque to people who have not gone through an education in
>>> the Chinese-language medium, whether in mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong or
>>> Singapore (I'm not sure about Malaysia).
>>>
>>
>> Oh, of course it's more complex than that.  And of course we can't
>> impute standard meanings to its morphemes based on MSM alone (hell,
>> since morphemes only mean in context, we can't impute meaning to
>> morphemes at *all* other than contingently, but that's another
>> discussion).
>>
>> But if we're going to make a Future World Mandarin, we're going to see
>> a lot of reinterpretation of morphemes.  A native Chinese speaker
>> trained in Chinese literature, history, and culture is likely to
>> realize that the ai in airen is pp, while the ai in aixin is an active
>> participle, but Joe Smith who learned Future World Mandarin for his
>> job isn't.  He's going to just assume "ai" is a morpheme carrying the
>> vague notion of love.
>>
>> And I'm pretty sure the average Mandarin speaker doesn't break down
>> "airen" into anything but "airen."  Maybe in school, when they learn
>> the characters to write it, they suddenly realize "oh, that's the word
>> 'love' there."  But compounds in Mandarin are no doubt learned as
>> lexical units, just as we English speakers don't think of "sidewalk"
>> as composed of two morphemes unless compelled to do so by annoying
>> linguistics professors in intro to linguistics.  (And even then, an
>> argument could be made that "sidewalk" isn't two morphemes at all, but
>> was historically)
>>
>> If I were to create a Future World Mandarin, I'd have to hack out the
>> phonology.  But every set of changes I imagine leads to a much more
>> ambiguous language.  I'd love to get rid of the aspirated stops
>> replacing them with fricatives, but doing so makes a stew of the
>> language, esp. if I snip away tone.  I'd also love to get rid of the
>> retroflex consonants, as much as I enjoy them in actual Mandarin.  But
>> I have no idea what a retroflex consonant might realistically change
>> into.  Voiced palatals?  So "zh" becomes /Z/?  A lot of Americans
>> pronounce it that way already, but that's more a function of the
>> orthography of pinyin, I think.  And then x- and sh- would collapse.
>> It would be easy to reintroduce final consonants.  Let "si" and "zi"
>> becomes "z" and "dz", then let Ce syllables drop the schwa on final
>> syllables.  Or maybe tone 3 will lengthen that schwa into an /E/ and
>> all other ones will drop out.  And then there's what to do with the
>> other vowels.
>>
>> It'd be against the whole creole feel of the thing, but wouldn't it be
>> fun to introduce verb conjugations?
>>
>> I read    -- otushu
>> you read -- nitushu
>> he, she reads -- tatushu
>> we read -- ontushu
>> you pl read -- nintushu
>> they read -- tantushu
>>
>> Or maybe -men wouldn't collapse like that.   I don't know, I'm just noodling.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
>> to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance.  --Arthur
>> Rimbaud
>



-- 
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance.  --Arthur
Rimbaud

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