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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Celtic & other myths (was: Celticity?)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:29:14 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (219 lines)

Ba dum bum!

On 9/25/10, Andreas Johansson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It's when you date someone one the recommendation of an astrologer.
>
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:45 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Is there such a thing as an "actual astrological date"?
>>
>> stevo
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:56 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/09/2010 23:34, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hallo!
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:17:18 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>  Now the name has stuck and any attempt to name this
>>>>> sub-branch of IE differently is doomed to failure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several names of language groups which are
>>>> equally questionable. We have no evidence that the
>>>> languages usually named "Tocharian" by linguists had
>>>> anything to do with the people who are called _Tocharoi_
>>>> in Hellenistic sources; many scholars now assume that the
>>>> _Tocharoi_ were in fact an Iranian people.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> Similar problems with "Hittite".
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yep - the only language called "Hittite"(i.e. the language
>>> of the Hittites) in the ancient world was the non-IE
>>> language we now call "Hattic" (not to be confused with a
>>> conlang of the same name!)
>>>
>>> For the language of the pre-IE Hittites, see:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language
>>>
>>> For the conlang called 'Hattic' see:
>>> http://steen.free.fr/khadurian/hattic_grammar.html
>>>
>>> When Jan van Steenbergen, who was (still is?) a member of
>>> this list, developed Hattic he had no idea that a natlang of
>>> the same name existed. IIRC he did think of changing the
>>> name of his conlang but thought that as it was set in an
>>> entirely different area at a different time no one in their
>>> right mind would confuse the two. Yet I notice on one
>>> website the warning: "Hattic (zõjuk Chader) is a fictional
>>> diachronic language invented by Jan van Steenbergen. It
>>> should be noted that Hattic has nothing in common with the
>>> ancient, non-IE Hattic language of the same name, spoken in
>>> Anatolia long ago."          :)
>>>
>>> But I digress. What we call "Hittite" the ancients referred
>>> to as the language of Neša". The modern English would be
>>> Nesic, Nesian or, maybe, Nesite. In my M.Litt thesis I
>>> consistently referred to the language as Nesite; but the
>>> misnomer "Hittite" is, alas, too firmly established to
>>> change, even though it's as inappropriate as calling modern
>>> English "British."
>>>
>>> With "Celtic", we at least know that the people referred
>>>> to as _Keltoi_ in ancient sources indeed spoke a language
>>>> belonging to that group.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but the _Celti_ named by the Romans were one the
>>> peoples that made up those known collectively as "Gauls."
>>> It has been observed that 'Gallic' would have been a better
>>> name, but it was politically unacceptable in 18th century
>>> Britain since its was too closely associated with the French
>>> who were, of course, our "natural enemies." (Yes, folks,
>>> that term was widely used and appears in contemporary print
>>> - a bit of state propaganda to persuade the common man that
>>> it was natural to go and bash the French!)
>>>
>>>  One of things that bugs me, however, is the assumption
>>>>> that the peculiarities of the Insular Celtic languages
>>>>> are features of the Celtic sub-branch of IE as a whole.
>>>>> In fact what we know of ancient Gaulish seems to
>>>>> contradict that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, indeed! There is not a shred of evidence for the
>>>> existence of any of the Insular Celtic peculiarities
>>>> (VSO word order, initial mutations, profusion of spirants
>>>> from the lenition of stops, etc.) in Gaulish, Lepontic
>>>> or Celtiberian! These languages are much more similar to
>>>> Latin in their structure than they are to Insular
>>>> Celtic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely - yet if a conlang occurs that purports to be a
>>> survival of a Continental Celtic language, what's the
>>> betting it will have most, if not all, of these features!
>>>
>>> The Continental Celtic language I have under work for
>>>> the League of Lost Language shows *nothing* of the
>>>> typical traits of an Insular Celtic language.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good for you.
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the Insular side, the uncertain member is Pictish,
>>>> long considered non-IE, but according to more recent
>>>> studies, probably Brythonic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I've pointed out before, 'Picti' simply means "painted
>>> people." Many think that the "painted people" were not all
>>> of the same stock, i.e. it included peoples who spoke
>>> Brythonic/Brittonic language(s), but there were others who
>>> spoke a non-IE language.  Certainly non-IE languages must
>>> have been spoken in Ireland & Britain way before the spread
>>> of IE to these islands.
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But I do find it annoying when people write, for
>>>>> example, as though the ancient Brits and ancient Irish
>>>>> felt themselves kindred people sharing a common
>>>>> culture. It just ain't true. The ancient Brits
>>>>> experienced the Irish as alien pirates and raiders much
>>>>> like the Saxons.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Often, the "Celts" are even identified with the "megalith
>>>>  culture" (itself a doubtful concept), utterly ignoring
>>>> the fact that the megalithic monuments are far too old to
>>>> have anything to do with the "Celts". Some were erected
>>>> at a time when Indo-European was just the language of a
>>>> tribe on the Ukrainian steppe.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly!! And there was nothing Celtic about Stone Henge -
>>> but try telling the modern self-styled druids!
>>>
>>> And as if all that was not enough, there is also a lot of
>>>>  boohow about "Celtic Christianity", as if there had been
>>>> a wiser and more truthful tradition of Christianity that
>>>> was stomped out by the evil Roman church. In fact,
>>>> "Celtic Christianity", which of course was never named
>>>> that way in its time, was just a branch of Western
>>>> Christianity that did some rather peripheral things such
>>>> as monks' tonsures or the calculation of Easter dates
>>>> differently (but shared the same doctrine and
>>>> acknowledged the authority of the Roman pope) -
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly! I'm darn sure the remnant of British Christianity,
>>> which had become inward looking and turned its back on the
>>> Saxons, felt no particularly closer connexion with the
>>> vibrant Christianity developing in Ireland than it did to
>>> Christianity on on the Continent.
>>>
>>> The difference over Easter was merely one of calculation.
>>> All accepted the Nicaean decree that it was the Sunday on or
>>> following the full moon after the Spring equinox. But this
>>> was calculated according to tables drawn up which did not
>>> always correspond to the actual astrological date. It's just
>>> that by the time the Irish monks and monks from Rome were at
>>> last evangelizing the Saxons, Rome in common with most other
>>> Christian communities had adopted the tables of calculation
>>> drawn up by the Alexandrians; the Irish were obviously still
>>> using an older set of tables.  No big deal - at Whitby every
>>> one fell in line.
>>>
>>> The notion of the "Celtic Church" seems have been a
>>> Victorian invention which, inevitably, has stuck.
>>>
>>>  No one in ancient times ever referred to the
>>>>> inhabitants of Britain or Ireland as Celts. It wasn't
>>>>> till the 18th century they were so named - and since
>>>>> then all sorts of nonsense has appeared which Tolkien
>>>>> objected to - and so do I.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And I.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Amen.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ray
>>> ==================================
>>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>>> ==================================
>>> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
>>> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
>>> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
>>> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
>>> will always interfere with language".
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Johansson
>
> Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
>

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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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