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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Celtic & other myths (was: Celticity?)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:56:03 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (178 lines)

On 23/09/2010 23:34, Jrg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:17:18 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]

>> Now the name has stuck and any attempt to name this
>> sub-branch of IE differently is doomed to failure.
>
> There are several names of language groups which are
> equally questionable. We have no evidence that the
> languages usually named "Tocharian" by linguists had
> anything to do with the people who are called _Tocharoi_
> in Hellenistic sources; many scholars now assume that the
> _Tocharoi_ were in fact an Iranian people.

True.

> Similar problems with "Hittite".

Yep - the only language called "Hittite"(i.e. the language
of the Hittites) in the ancient world was the non-IE
language we now call "Hattic" (not to be confused with a
conlang of the same name!)

For the language of the pre-IE Hittites, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language

For the conlang called 'Hattic' see:
http://steen.free.fr/khadurian/hattic_grammar.html

When Jan van Steenbergen, who was (still is?) a member of
this list, developed Hattic he had no idea that a natlang of
the same name existed. IIRC he did think of changing the
name of his conlang but thought that as it was set in an
entirely different area at a different time no one in their
right mind would confuse the two. Yet I notice on one
website the warning: "Hattic (zjuk Chader) is a fictional
diachronic language invented by Jan van Steenbergen. It
should be noted that Hattic has nothing in common with the
ancient, non-IE Hattic language of the same name, spoken in
Anatolia long ago."          :)

But I digress. What we call "Hittite" the ancients referred
to as the language of Nea". The modern English would be
Nesic, Nesian or, maybe, Nesite. In my M.Litt thesis I
consistently referred to the language as Nesite; but the
misnomer "Hittite" is, alas, too firmly established to
change, even though it's as inappropriate as calling modern
English "British."

> With "Celtic", we at least know that the people referred
> to as _Keltoi_ in ancient sources indeed spoke a language
> belonging to that group.

Yes, but the _Celti_ named by the Romans were one the
peoples that made up those known collectively as "Gauls."
It has been observed that 'Gallic' would have been a better
name, but it was politically unacceptable in 18th century
Britain since its was too closely associated with the French
who were, of course, our "natural enemies." (Yes, folks,
that term was widely used and appears in contemporary print
- a bit of state propaganda to persuade the common man that
it was natural to go and bash the French!)

>> One of things that bugs me, however, is the assumption
>> that the peculiarities of the Insular Celtic languages
>> are features of the Celtic sub-branch of IE as a whole.
>> In fact what we know of ancient Gaulish seems to
>> contradict that.
>
> Indeed, indeed! There is not a shred of evidence for the
> existence of any of the Insular Celtic peculiarities
> (VSO word order, initial mutations, profusion of spirants
> from the lenition of stops, etc.) in Gaulish, Lepontic
> or Celtiberian! These languages are much more similar to
> Latin in their structure than they are to Insular
> Celtic.

Absolutely - yet if a conlang occurs that purports to be a
survival of a Continental Celtic language, what's the
betting it will have most, if not all, of these features!

> The Continental Celtic language I have under work for
> the League of Lost Language shows *nothing* of the
> typical traits of an Insular Celtic language.

Good for you.

[snip]
>
> On the Insular side, the uncertain member is Pictish,
> long considered non-IE, but according to more recent
> studies, probably Brythonic.

As I've pointed out before, 'Picti' simply means "painted
people." Many think that the "painted people" were not all
of the same stock, i.e. it included peoples who spoke
Brythonic/Brittonic language(s), but there were others who
spoke a non-IE language.  Certainly non-IE languages must
have been spoken in Ireland & Britain way before the spread
of IE to these islands.

[snip]
>
>> But I do find it annoying when people write, for
>> example, as though the ancient Brits and ancient Irish
>> felt themselves kindred people sharing a common
>> culture. It just ain't true. The ancient Brits
>> experienced the Irish as alien pirates and raiders much
>> like the Saxons.
>
[snip]
>
> Often, the "Celts" are even identified with the "megalith
>  culture" (itself a doubtful concept), utterly ignoring
> the fact that the megalithic monuments are far too old to
> have anything to do with the "Celts". Some were erected
> at a time when Indo-European was just the language of a
> tribe on the Ukrainian steppe.

Exactly!! And there was nothing Celtic about Stone Henge -
but try telling the modern self-styled druids!

> And as if all that was not enough, there is also a lot of
>  boohow about "Celtic Christianity", as if there had been
> a wiser and more truthful tradition of Christianity that
> was stomped out by the evil Roman church. In fact,
> "Celtic Christianity", which of course was never named
> that way in its time, was just a branch of Western
> Christianity that did some rather peripheral things such
> as monks' tonsures or the calculation of Easter dates
> differently (but shared the same doctrine and
> acknowledged the authority of the Roman pope) -

Exactly! I'm darn sure the remnant of British Christianity,
which had become inward looking and turned its back on the
Saxons, felt no particularly closer connexion with the
vibrant Christianity developing in Ireland than it did to
Christianity on on the Continent.

The difference over Easter was merely one of calculation.
All accepted the Nicaean decree that it was the Sunday on or
following the full moon after the Spring equinox. But this
was calculated according to tables drawn up which did not
always correspond to the actual astrological date. It's just
that by the time the Irish monks and monks from Rome were at
last evangelizing the Saxons, Rome in common with most other
Christian communities had adopted the tables of calculation
drawn up by the Alexandrians; the Irish were obviously still
using an older set of tables.  No big deal - at Whitby every
one fell in line.

The notion of the "Celtic Church" seems have been a
Victorian invention which, inevitably, has stuck.

>> No one in ancient times ever referred to the
>> inhabitants of Britain or Ireland as Celts. It wasn't
>> till the 18th century they were so named - and since
>> then all sorts of nonsense has appeared which Tolkien
>> objected to - and so do I.
>
> And I.

Amen.


-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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