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CONLANG  September 2010, Week 4

CONLANG September 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Celtic & other myths (was: Celticity?)

From:

Andreas Johansson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:50:13 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (214 lines)

It's when you date someone one the recommendation of an astrologer.

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:45 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Is there such a thing as an "actual astrological date"?
>
> stevo
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:56 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> On 23/09/2010 23:34, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>
>>> Hallo!
>>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:17:18 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>  Now the name has stuck and any attempt to name this
>>>> sub-branch of IE differently is doomed to failure.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are several names of language groups which are
>>> equally questionable. We have no evidence that the
>>> languages usually named "Tocharian" by linguists had
>>> anything to do with the people who are called _Tocharoi_
>>> in Hellenistic sources; many scholars now assume that the
>>> _Tocharoi_ were in fact an Iranian people.
>>>
>>
>> True.
>>
>> Similar problems with "Hittite".
>>>
>>
>> Yep - the only language called "Hittite"(i.e. the language
>> of the Hittites) in the ancient world was the non-IE
>> language we now call "Hattic" (not to be confused with a
>> conlang of the same name!)
>>
>> For the language of the pre-IE Hittites, see:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language
>>
>> For the conlang called 'Hattic' see:
>> http://steen.free.fr/khadurian/hattic_grammar.html
>>
>> When Jan van Steenbergen, who was (still is?) a member of
>> this list, developed Hattic he had no idea that a natlang of
>> the same name existed. IIRC he did think of changing the
>> name of his conlang but thought that as it was set in an
>> entirely different area at a different time no one in their
>> right mind would confuse the two. Yet I notice on one
>> website the warning: "Hattic (zõjuk Chader) is a fictional
>> diachronic language invented by Jan van Steenbergen. It
>> should be noted that Hattic has nothing in common with the
>> ancient, non-IE Hattic language of the same name, spoken in
>> Anatolia long ago."          :)
>>
>> But I digress. What we call "Hittite" the ancients referred
>> to as the language of Neša". The modern English would be
>> Nesic, Nesian or, maybe, Nesite. In my M.Litt thesis I
>> consistently referred to the language as Nesite; but the
>> misnomer "Hittite" is, alas, too firmly established to
>> change, even though it's as inappropriate as calling modern
>> English "British."
>>
>> With "Celtic", we at least know that the people referred
>>> to as _Keltoi_ in ancient sources indeed spoke a language
>>> belonging to that group.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but the _Celti_ named by the Romans were one the
>> peoples that made up those known collectively as "Gauls."
>> It has been observed that 'Gallic' would have been a better
>> name, but it was politically unacceptable in 18th century
>> Britain since its was too closely associated with the French
>> who were, of course, our "natural enemies." (Yes, folks,
>> that term was widely used and appears in contemporary print
>> - a bit of state propaganda to persuade the common man that
>> it was natural to go and bash the French!)
>>
>>  One of things that bugs me, however, is the assumption
>>>> that the peculiarities of the Insular Celtic languages
>>>> are features of the Celtic sub-branch of IE as a whole.
>>>> In fact what we know of ancient Gaulish seems to
>>>> contradict that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, indeed! There is not a shred of evidence for the
>>> existence of any of the Insular Celtic peculiarities
>>> (VSO word order, initial mutations, profusion of spirants
>>> from the lenition of stops, etc.) in Gaulish, Lepontic
>>> or Celtiberian! These languages are much more similar to
>>> Latin in their structure than they are to Insular
>>> Celtic.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely - yet if a conlang occurs that purports to be a
>> survival of a Continental Celtic language, what's the
>> betting it will have most, if not all, of these features!
>>
>> The Continental Celtic language I have under work for
>>> the League of Lost Language shows *nothing* of the
>>> typical traits of an Insular Celtic language.
>>>
>>
>> Good for you.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> On the Insular side, the uncertain member is Pictish,
>>> long considered non-IE, but according to more recent
>>> studies, probably Brythonic.
>>>
>>
>> As I've pointed out before, 'Picti' simply means "painted
>> people." Many think that the "painted people" were not all
>> of the same stock, i.e. it included peoples who spoke
>> Brythonic/Brittonic language(s), but there were others who
>> spoke a non-IE language.  Certainly non-IE languages must
>> have been spoken in Ireland & Britain way before the spread
>> of IE to these islands.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> But I do find it annoying when people write, for
>>>> example, as though the ancient Brits and ancient Irish
>>>> felt themselves kindred people sharing a common
>>>> culture. It just ain't true. The ancient Brits
>>>> experienced the Irish as alien pirates and raiders much
>>>> like the Saxons.
>>>>
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> Often, the "Celts" are even identified with the "megalith
>>>  culture" (itself a doubtful concept), utterly ignoring
>>> the fact that the megalithic monuments are far too old to
>>> have anything to do with the "Celts". Some were erected
>>> at a time when Indo-European was just the language of a
>>> tribe on the Ukrainian steppe.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly!! And there was nothing Celtic about Stone Henge -
>> but try telling the modern self-styled druids!
>>
>> And as if all that was not enough, there is also a lot of
>>>  boohow about "Celtic Christianity", as if there had been
>>> a wiser and more truthful tradition of Christianity that
>>> was stomped out by the evil Roman church. In fact,
>>> "Celtic Christianity", which of course was never named
>>> that way in its time, was just a branch of Western
>>> Christianity that did some rather peripheral things such
>>> as monks' tonsures or the calculation of Easter dates
>>> differently (but shared the same doctrine and
>>> acknowledged the authority of the Roman pope) -
>>>
>>
>> Exactly! I'm darn sure the remnant of British Christianity,
>> which had become inward looking and turned its back on the
>> Saxons, felt no particularly closer connexion with the
>> vibrant Christianity developing in Ireland than it did to
>> Christianity on on the Continent.
>>
>> The difference over Easter was merely one of calculation.
>> All accepted the Nicaean decree that it was the Sunday on or
>> following the full moon after the Spring equinox. But this
>> was calculated according to tables drawn up which did not
>> always correspond to the actual astrological date. It's just
>> that by the time the Irish monks and monks from Rome were at
>> last evangelizing the Saxons, Rome in common with most other
>> Christian communities had adopted the tables of calculation
>> drawn up by the Alexandrians; the Irish were obviously still
>> using an older set of tables.  No big deal - at Whitby every
>> one fell in line.
>>
>> The notion of the "Celtic Church" seems have been a
>> Victorian invention which, inevitably, has stuck.
>>
>>  No one in ancient times ever referred to the
>>>> inhabitants of Britain or Ireland as Celts. It wasn't
>>>> till the 18th century they were so named - and since
>>>> then all sorts of nonsense has appeared which Tolkien
>>>> objected to - and so do I.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And I.
>>>
>>
>> Amen.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ray
>> ==================================
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>> ==================================
>> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
>> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
>> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
>> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
>> will always interfere with language".
>>
>



-- 
Andreas Johansson

Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

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May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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December 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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