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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  October 2010, Week 3

CONLANG October 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: XSAMPA question

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:24:40 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (87 lines)

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I understand your frustration, but I wouldn't give up.  IPA (and its
> cousin,
> X-SAMPA) has a lot of value if you want to be unambiguous about the sounds
> of a language.
>
> I'm a native English speaker, and your example of phonetic spelling ala
> Bertliz isn't transparent to me.  "pro-nun-see-AY-shun" is clear only
> because I know the word it's supposed to be.  But if I didn't, I wouldn't
> be
> sure if AY represented /aj/ as in "fight" or /ej/ as in "fate."  And "pro"
> "nun" and "shun" are only clear because they're words with their own
> pronunciations I can borrow.  With the Berlitz system, how can you ever
> represent a non-English sound?  "A little bit like a k but softer" is
> nearly
> useless.
>
> Finally, using English phonetic spelling to represent the sounds in a word
> traps you into unintentional anglo-centricisms.  For example, how do you
> spell the unrounded-o of German?  In English phonetic spelling, you're
> going
> to end up with writing in a pronounced English accent in any conlang you
> apply it to.  Less so with IPA or X-SAMPA.
>
>
>
Wait! German has an unrounded 'o'? I don't think so. It has rounded o, u, e
(ö), and i (ü).

stevo

>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Arthaey Angosii <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >> decidedly NOT composite. It is a very pure, unchanging vowel sound.
> > >> (There is NO similarity in the pronunciations of "brain" and "brine"
> > >> where the "i" in "brine" is clearly composite.).
> > >
> > > I speak Californian English, and I can definitely hear the difference
> > > between the /ej/ in "brain" and, say, the /e/ in Spanish /beso/. The
> > > Englishes I'm familiar with don't have a pure /e/.
> > >
> > > You're right that "brine" is different -- it's a separate diphthong
> > > altogether: /Aj/.
> > >
> > > I remember when I first started studying phonetics for my Linguistics
> > > minor, having to unlearn some incorrect assumptions I'd made about my
> > > native language. Good luck!
> >
> > OK. I'll concede the point on "brain". If I listen real hard I hear a
> > hint of very slight trace of the subtle influence of an almost
> > present, but not quite actually spoken additional vowel sound. If,
> > that is, I use my imagination. ;-)
> >
> > Here's another conundrum. My syllabary has the "O" sound in "toe",
> > "slow", "know" the way to "go", and the English SAMPA chart has "no"
> > as "aU or o", but it has "law, caught" as "o or A". First of all,
> > "caught" does not have the same vowel as "father", like the chart
> > claims, and neither does "no" have the same vowel as "law". So I'm
> > utterly confused as to which SAMPA symbol is the vowel in "toe". None
> > of them seems to be that vowel. Not if the same vowel is supposedly in
> > "law", "caught" and "father".
> >
> > All things considered, I think I'm going to stick with the old-school
> > "Berliz" method of spelling out pronunciation like
> > "pro-nun-see-AY-shun". Not only can I understand that, but the average
> > non-linguist would have no trouble with it. And if I want to share my
> > conlang with anyone else most of the anyone elses in the world are not
> > linguists, so I should share using the means of communication held in
> > common by the largest segment of my potential audience, which
> > definitely is not IPA or SAMPA.
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to
> window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance.  --Arthur Rimbaud
>

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