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CONLANG  October 2010, Week 3

CONLANG October 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness

From:

maikxlx <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:16:00 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (91 lines)

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 6:33 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> maikxlx, On 17/10/2010 07:49:
>
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:13 AM, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The thoughtful responses my message received made me attempt to recast my
>>> question into a more coherent form.
>>>
>>> One of my questions was "Why have (full) compositionality of form without
>>> (full) compositionality of meaning?". The answer given to that is
>>> "learnability".  That seems right.
>>>
>>> Yes, but I would describe "(full) compositionality of form" simply as
>> self-segregation, and "(full) compositionality of meaning" as Frege's
>> Principle of Compositionality or "fregean-ness" for short.
>>
>
> I don't understand. Self-segregation means that morphme boundaries can be
> unambiguously inserted on the basis of the shape of the phonological string.
> Full compositionality of form means that the whole form consists
> exhaustively of morphemes that are structured together to form the whole.
>
>

Sorry, I assumed that the qualified term "_full_ compositionality of form"
meant something to the effect of "_reversable/transparent_ compositionality
of form" (thus self-segregating), because I couldn't grok what the implied
alternate term, "_partial_ compositionality of form", would refer to.  It
seems to me that a form is either compositional or non-compositional i.e.
basic.



> [...]
>
> Your second possible answer seems more an answer to the question "If you
> have parallel compositionality of form and meaning not only within the
> sentence but also within the phonological word, what uses can this be put
> to?" Given just the problem of encoding syntactic grouping, I don't think
> you'd argue that morphology is the solution that that naturally leads to.
>
>

Well, this may be a matter of style and taste.  You don't want parallel
compositionality straddling the morphology/syntax boundary.  The way I
looked at it: If there is need for a particle that governs exactly one word,
and always appears clitic-like adjacent to the word it governs, and produces
an expression that itself belongs to a syntactic category that contains
phonological words, shouldn't we describe that expression as a derived
phonological word?  Isn't that what it really is?

One detail that I didn't mention in my example above is that if you wrote
all stems and suffixes e.g. {bellòki matrèbli} as separate words e.g. {bello
ki matre bli}, it would be pronounced the same and you'd be little worse for
the wear.  So in a way, I guess I implicitly agree with your point.  I just
don't like the look of swarms of tiny words.




>
> Ithkuil has a very high ratio of meaning to form, and it achieves that by
> putting the meanings in closed classes. The reason why Ithkuil might not be
> so compact if it had to express the content of some random text (tho I have
> little idea how compact it would in fact be) is that closed class meaning
> systems are not suitable for random text. When you've got a closed class
> meaning system, you express what the system allows you to express.
>
> But, as I suspect you may yourself have been thinking, one might have a
> hybrid system that puts high frequency meanings into a closed class and
> encodes them morphologically compactly, and leaves the rest to syntax. I'm
> skeptical about how well that could work, but perhaps the skepticism is
> unwarranted. My Livagian does that a bit, but not in any interesting
> nontrivial way; it just has clitic forms of some common words.
>
> --And.
>
>



As you can probably tell from my examples, I am not striving for compactness
at the moment.  In fact, I've fleshed out the lexicon with a lot of
a-posteriori stuff (gradually building a nice list of basic expressions as I
go) so I can work on the syntax.  However, yes I have thought about it,
and I agree that if compactness is the goal then a well designed morphology
with closed class of compact, high-frequency markers is a promising route.

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