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CONLANG  October 2010, Week 3

CONLANG October 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: An engelang to minimize or contain abstractness

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:13:37 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (51 lines)

Jim Henry, On 15/10/2010 13:38:
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:30 PM, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> It's never been clear to me why an engelang should have any kind of regular
>> derivational morphology. (That is, what sort of engelang design goals would
>> be satisfied thereby?)
>
> Ease of learning, for one, as maikxlx points out.  A language with
> 1000 root morphemes and three regular derivational operations is,
> other things equal, easier to learn than a language with 4000 root
> words and no derivational morphology.   And as Alex says, compactness
> may argue for derivational morphology over idiomatic phrases.
>
> On the other hand, irregular derivational morphology can be an aid to
> ease of learning vocabulary, too, as compared to additional unrelated
> root words.  I'd argue from experience (with Esperanto and
> gj-zym-byn) that regular derivational morphology contributes more to
> ease of use, though.  Syntactic "derivation" can be just as irregular
> as derivational morphology; regularity or irregularity being held
> constant, though, I'm not sure that derivational morphology vs. syntax
> has any advantage in ease of learning/use as opposed to conciseness.
>
>> ........ indeed, given
>> that derivational morphology is essentially semantically irregular (else
>> it's just a kind of syntax), there's a case for saying it should be
>> irregular at the level of form too.
>
> I'm not sure I follow.  As we discussed here a few years ago, you can
> have idiomaticity or semantic transparency at any of several levels --
> derived word, compound word, phrase, or clause.  I don't think I've
> ever heard of a definition of "word", or a definition of the
> difference between morphology and syntax, where semantic regularity is
> a decisive criterion.  Usually it seems to be a matter of whether a
> derived word contains bound morphemes that can't occur on their own,
> or whether a compound word is pronounced differently than a
> corresponding phrase.  And indeed, the definition of "productive" with
> respect to derivational operations seems to imply a fair degree of
> semantic regularity.   Derived words' meanings may drift over time
> from their original semantically-regular derived meanings (usually, I
> think, becoming more specific), but new words derived with a
> productive operation must have fairly predictable meanings when first
> used or we would not use said derivational operations to coin new
> words for fear of being misunderstood.

The thoughtful responses my message received made me attempt to recast my question into a more coherent form.

One of my questions was "Why have (full) compositionality of form without (full) compositionality of meaning?". The answer given to that is "learnability".  That seems right.

Another question (more tacit in my original) is "Why have parallel compositionality of form and meaning not only within the sentence but also within the phonological word?". The answer given to that is "compactness". I'm not sure if anyone would argue that compositional structures of sublexical forms (i.e. within the phonological word) are necessarily more compact than compositional structures of lexical forms. But there is indeed what I think of as the "Ithkuil effect": provided you have a closed combinatorial system at the level of meaning (i.e. where the combinatorial elements belong to closed classes) then you can make it maximally compact at the level of form. Bound (combinatorially restricted) forms will be more compact. In derivational morphology there are typically bound forms expressing members of a closed class of meanings. Hence anything that delivers the Ithkuil effect will be a kind of derivational morphology.

--And.

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