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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  November 2010, Week 4

CONLANG November 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Missing infinitive

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 26 Nov 2010 07:48:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

On 25/11/2010 21:05, Michael D Martin wrote:
> Oh, OK, I also wasn't sure I understood the difference
> between infinitive and gerund. I was wondering if they
> could be combined. So what you are saying is if my
> language has only one verb form that serves this
> semantic function than it is by definition the
> infinitive?

The infinitive and the so-called 'gerund' do overlap in 
meaning and use in English.

But the term 'gerund' does _not_ have a universal meaning; 
its definition is _language specific_.  Traditionally it was 
used to describe the use of the accusative, genitive, dative 
& ablative of a verbal noun in Latin which ended in -ndum 
[acc] and did duty for the 'missing cases' of the infinitive.

The Latin infinitive could be used only as subject or object 
of a finite verb or as the complement of "to be." The 
accusative of the gerund was used only after prepositions.

But, as anyone familiar with Latin will know that the 
'gerund' is identical with the neuter forms of a verbal 
adjective called the 'gerundive' - and the distinction 
between gerund & gerundive is IMO somewhat artificial, but 
that's another story.

The 'gerund' in _English_ is a tradition name for the -ing 
form of a verb when it serves as a _verbal noun_; it is, in 
fact, identical with the imperfective participle.

IIRC in the grammar of some languages the term 'gerund' is 
given to a verbal _adverb_.  The point is there is no 
general cross-language meaning to 'gerund.'  If you use the 
term for some feature of your language, you need to define it.

On the other hand, the term 'infinitive' does have a broadly 
recognized 'cross-language' meaning. That is why I would 
find it strange that, if a language clearly had a verbal 
noun that was used in more or less the same situations as 
the infinitive in English and many other languages, the 
verbal noun was called the 'gerund' and not the 'infinitive'.
---------------------------------------------------

On 25/11/2010 21:22, Charlie wrote:
 > --- In [log in to unmask], Garth Wallace<gwalla@...>
 > wrote:
 >>
 >> I thought it was only an infinitive if it lacked
 >> marking for certain categories that are required to be
 >> marked on finite verbs, like tense or aspect.
 >>
 >
 > AIUI the form is an 'infinitive' because it lacks a
 > personal designation.  Infinitives can have tense and
 > voice: to love, to be loved, to have loved.  Other
 > languages can show other examples.  I can't think,
 > though, of mood used for infinitives in English.

Trask defines 'infinitive' thus:
"A non-finite form of the verb occurring in some (but not 
all) languages and typically serving to express the meaning 
of the verb in the abstract, with no marking for or 
restriction in tense, aspect, mood or person (though some 
languages exhibit two or more infinitives distinguished in 
tense or aspect)."

As Charlie has pointed out the tense/aspect distinction 
occurs in English as well as a voice distinction.  The same 
was true of Latin and is also true of many European languages.

On the other hand, Trask's definition could also be applied 
to the Latin gerund and the so-called English 'gerund'     :)
-------------------------------------------

On 25/11/2010 22:23, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
 > On 25 November 2010 20:10, Gary
 > Shannon<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >
 >> Is the infinitive something a language MUST have?
 >>
 >>
 > As others have said before, the answer is simple: no.
 > Plenty of languages out there get by without an
 > infinitive. Indeed, Modern Greek uses finite subclauses
 > nearly everywhere English would use an infinitive. Your
 > example: "I like to run" in Modern Greek would indeed be
 > "μ' αρέσει να τρέχω": "I like that I run" (or literally:
 > "it pleases me that I run").

Exactly!!  But let's be even clearer: a language does not 
have to have a verbal noun, whatever you may wish to call it!

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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