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CONLANG  November 2010, Week 4

CONLANG November 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: phonology quesiton: de-voiced vs. voiceless

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 05:08:06 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

interesting!  thank you.


> Strictly speaking, if the difference between [p] and [b] was strictly a
> matter of voicing, [b̥] in IPA would just be a fancier way to write [p].
>

ok - this makes sense, although it seems to violate the "phoneticity" of the
IPA, since we have one sound represented with both [b̥] and [p].  with
phonemes, rather than phones (i.e. broad transcription), it makes more
sense:  could you say that german "Tag" can be reflected as both /tag/ and
/taɡ̊/ broadly (since the devoicing is allophonic) and as [tak] narrowly?


> In practice however, depending on the language the distinction between [p]
> and
> [b] may be more than just voicing (it might also be minute differences in
> the length of the closure, articulatory energy, or other things that just
> can't simply be captured by the IPA). In that context, it may make sense to
> talk about [b̥] as distinct from [p]. But it is language-specific.
>
> Most often, devoiced voiced consonants and voiceless consonants are only
> contrasted in systems where the main distinction is a fortis vs. lenis one
> (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis). [b̥] is then the
> lenis
> version, [p] the fortis one. But it's mostly a convention to note them that
> way, and it doesn't mean anything deep about the devoiced diacritic.


aha.  i've noticed that in whispering (in english) /b/ does not become
identical to (the unaspirated allophone of) /p/.  perhaps this is the
fortis/lenis distinction?  at any rate it seems to justify the
phonetic [b̥]-[p] distinction.

thank you!

matt

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:55 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela.cg@
gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 24 November 2010 09:38, Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > for far too long i have been wondering what the difference is between
> > so-called de-voiced voiced consonants (e.g.  [b̥ d̥ ɡ̊ z̥]) and true
> > voiceless consonants (e.g. [p t k s]).  can anyone shed light on this for
> > me?
> >
> > matt
> >
>
> Mmm... The short answer is "it depends". The long answer is "it depends on
> the language and the situation".
>
> Strictly speaking, if the difference between [p] and [b] was strictly a
> matter of voicing, [b̥] in IPA would just be a fancier way to write [p]. In
> practice however, depending on the language the distinction between [p] and
> [b] may be more than just voicing (it might also be minute differences in
> the length of the closure, articulatory energy, or other things that just
> can't simply be captured by the IPA). In that context, it may make sense to
> talk about [b̥] as distinct from [p]. But it is language-specific.
>
> Most often, devoiced voiced consonants and voiceless consonants are only
> contrasted in systems where the main distinction is a fortis vs. lenis one
> (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortis_and_lenis). [b̥] is then the
> lenis
> version, [p] the fortis one. But it's mostly a convention to note them that
> way, and it doesn't mean anything deep about the devoiced diacritic.
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

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