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AUXLANG  December 2010, Week 2

AUXLANG December 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Esperanto/Mondlango continuance, change, and acceptance

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:27:10 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

MacLeod Dave skrev 2010-12-13 12.24:
> Wow, that was a long post. I'll reply to the Idiom Neutral part:
>
>>> Think about the difficulty of reforming
>>> English spelling. People have tried it for years with little result.
>>> Even a minor tweak, such as making the accusative optional, would
>>> provoke strong opposition.
>> Yep, I think such changes are only possible in languages with a very low
>> user base, such as Idiom Neutral.
>>
>>> There are a lot of auxlangs out there; find one you're comfortable
>>> with and promote it. In the case of at-sight auxlangs such as
>>> Occidental, you can even slightly tweak an existing one without losing
>>> intelligibility.
>> There really are a lot. I've been following Dave's revival of Idiom Neutral
>> and trying to wrap my head around the practical differences between
>> Occidental, Novial, and Idiom Neutral. Certainly Idiom Neutral has a very
>> different sound, but one that seems ok when one attempts pronunciation as
>> though one were an Italian speaking Latin. And I like the grammar book from
>> 1903. I particularly want Dave to pick 3 grammar points he wants to fix and
>> fix them. I've seen some people put forth an argument that once you begin to
>> change a language it dies "the death of 1000 fixes" but why such an extreme?
>> Why can't the auxlang community recommend a revived language undergo no more
>> than 3 or 5 changes, a number set from the beginning before even identifying
>> change number 1? And why not a timeframe? "A change happens in 2 months or
>> not at all." People have no difficulty setting limits on their activities or
>> their children's activities ("Ok, you can read for 15 more minutes and then
>> go to sleep.") and yet the auxlang community cries doom when one suggestion
>> is made. I'm sure it's because they've seen good languages get buried with
>> perfectionism and the endless debate. I believe that a set number of fixes
>> in a set timeframe would help a language be more attractive to later
>> newcomers, and might gain a larger audience more quickly.
> I agree about small fixes. Ido is a good example of a language that
> carried out a number of fixes, maybe even too many, but then managed
> to stop when enough was enough and has hardly changed at all since
> then. The best way to solidify a language at a certain point is to
> simply write a ton of content in it so that anyone encountering the
> language will see everything you've written most of the time.
>
> The reason I haven't done any tweaking to IN is that daily life has
> taken precedence, and so the only contribution I'm doing to auxlanging
> at the moment is putting old issues of Cosmoglotta together (and
> making some flash cards for Sambahsa) because that's pretty easy to do
> when you have just a few minutes. IN is by far the easiest language
> for the non-Western world, and I have a much easier time explaining it
> than Occidental. On the other hand, Occidental is just really
> comfortable and easy to read for anyone familiar with one of its
> source languages. I would recommend going with Occidental right now,
> unless
>
> unless!
>
> some three or four or five people are interested in tweaking IN
> together. I could probably put in enough time for that. It would be
> one of those projects where you allocate a certain number of months to
> look at it, and then pledge to leave it stable for two or three or so
> years after it's done to avoid any further tinkering. As I wrote on
> Page F30 yesterday some of the tweaks would be:
>
> - Not requiring adjectives to come after the noun. Looks good in
> practice but when you start translating content it turns out to be a
> bother. Even simple greetings usually have adjectives (good day, good
> night) and putting the adjective after is awkward, and IN avoids this
> numerous times in the dictionary by simply joining two words together
> with a hyphen, so there are tons of examples of adjectives coming
> before the noun anyway.
>
> - Germanic (and also Finnish, Turkic, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc.
> etc.) genitive in addition to the Romance 'de'. It should probably be
> a suffix, kind of like the Afrikaans 'se'.
>
> - Gender-neutral pronoun for he/she. Not for PC reasons but because it
> makes translating from Finnish/Turkish/etc. that much easier. Even
> English too where the awkward 'he or she' is used all the time, or the
> now somewhat archaic sounding 'one'.
>
> I don't think any of the homonyms need tweaking. I actually kind of
> like languages that have a few of them. I especially like how words
> like astronom (astronomer) become astronomi, which either
> 'astronomers' or 'astronomy' since astronomy really is just the result
> of astronomers coming together.
>
>
>>> Yes, (con)IALs have often not been taken seriously as "real" languages,
>>> even though some of them have become real, living languages.  For
>>> example, there are professional linguists who do not consider them
>>> "real" languages, considering them "fake" languages.  (There are a few
>>> exceptions.)
>> It angers me to know there are only a few exceptions. I ranted to myself at
>> length recently about this. The three groups of people who should be in
>> lockstep with the view on auxlangs are translators, linguists, and those who
>> create the languages. How can a professional linguist, the one who knows all
>> about language, write off a constructed language as not having the depth to
>> express what must be expressed? They somehow think it's meant to replace a
>> mother tongue. Well by the time it got to that stage it'd have morphed like
>> a natural language to be capable of doing just that. But it's not *supposed*
>> to replace a mother tongue. How can they not get this simple point? It took
>> me 10 seconds to 'get it'.
> It's quite baffling why they don't get it. An easy second language for
> the world could be learned by anyone in their own country so there
> would be no danger to one's mother tongue whatsoever. Compare that to
> English or any other language that takes years of living abroad to
> fully master.
>
>
>>> For all its faults (and I consider that is has them), E-o is
>>> considerably more regular and easier to learn and use than many/most
>>> natural languages, including English for non-native learners/speakers.
>> I've been practicing the basic words. It's sinking in, slowly. But I'm
>> probably switching to a different auxlang to learn first instead. I can't
>> decided which one, but Idiom Neutral has caught my attention with Dave's
>> determination to focus on that one language. Novial keeps calling my name,
>> Ido stands quietly, staring a hole in me, and Mondlango looks up at me like
>> a bright-eyed child, begging for handouts in the street.
> That looks just like something Robert Winter would have written a few
> months ago, even up to the personification of auxlang candidates.
>
>
>
> Anyway, in the meantime (until I somehow find a way to give IN a good
> look-over and a few tweaks) I would recommend either Occidental or
> Ido. If you can work your way through it I would recommend reading the
> Kompleta Gramatiko Detaloza since that's where all your questions
> about Ido in real usage will be answered.
>
> One BIG plus for Ido is that the world's Esperantists already
> understand a good deal of it, and Ido is actually the only IAL out
> there that is based on the premise that Esperanto is *almost* good
> enough. The two sides don't seem to dislike each other much anymore
> from what I can tell, and if one day Ido acquired a few hundred
> thousand speakers there would be a huge number of Esperantists that
> would certainly begin using it just for fun. Many Esperantists write
> that they have no problem with Ido, they just don't find many places
> to use it and so Esperanto is their preferred option as a language you
> can actually use to do things. So Ido is the only one that is closely
> related to a language spoken by a group of people that are already
> good and sold on the idea of an IAL, and we all know that's the
> biggest hurdle of all.
>
> And for Occidental I would recommend reading here:
>
> http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno-plus?aid=e0g
>
> It starts out when the language is still in flux, so maybe start
> reading from about 1935 or so. I haven't gotten through reading them
> all myself so I'm not sure if that's the best date...maybe to be sure
> you could start reading the five years from 1946.
>
Ego cogita ke li optimum es ke in 
un melior future il vud exista mult 
idistes e mult esperantistes, i ke 
on lekturaria ambi lingues e 
occuria un venvergence del du 
lingves sin un decision del supre 
ma per un koalision del 
herbe-radices, li grassroots.

Kjell R

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