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AUXLANG Home

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AUXLANG  December 2010, Week 2

AUXLANG December 2010, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Esperanto/Mondlango continuance, change, and acceptance

From:

Paul Bartlett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:48:50 -0500

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (147 lines)

Whew!  What a long post.  In order to try to keep things more
manageable, I will only respond to a few items here and there.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Lang Newb wrote:

> I'll combine the responses in one post with your name at the top of
> each section for clarity.  I just don't want to spam the board with
> many separate replies.

As an old timer here, may I suggest that (in my opinion, at least) it
would actually be preferable to respond to individual posters
separately rather than writing a post that covers so many points from
so many people.  It can get confusing.  Writing individual responses
would not be "spam[ming] the board" but rather would make things a
little more manageable.

> Interlingua: I want to bring Gode back from the dead so I can kick
> him in the nuts so hard he sees them upside down and backwards. 
> Interlingua just makes me furious when I think about it.  I ranted at
> myself for 15 minutes the other day incredulous at the thought of 14
> years of work resulting in a language that wasn't meant to be spoken,
> presided over by a man who didn't even believe in the concept of an
> auxlang as I know it.  In my ignorance, I believe a great opportunity
> had been squandered by the creation of Interlingua.  [...]

May I suggest that your awareness (or assessment) of Interlingua may be
incomplete.  Sometimes (con)IALs move beyond their creators. 
Interlingua soon moved beyond Gode.  In fact, in Europe things did soon
move beyond Gode, and it became an actual spoken language as an
auxiliary, apart from what Gode himself might have thought or even
intended.  There have been (speaking) international conferences in I-a,
and on the main Union Mondial pro Interlingua website
(http://www.interlingua.com if you do not have the URL) there are
downloadable audio files of "Radio Interlingua."

Zamenhof was the author of Esperanto and a primary exemplar of good E-o
usage.  The "Fundamento de Esperanto" largely defines the language and
has given it stability.  Nevertheless, in some ways E-o users have
moved beyond Z.  Similarly, Gode was the primary architect of I-a, and
the "Interlingua-English Dictionary" and "Interlingua Grammar" largely
define the language and have given it a basis.  Also, I personally
admire G's style.  Nevertheless, in some ways I-a users have moved
beyond G.  I am not trying convert you to Interlingua, but I think it
may be treated fairly.  I have found it useful.  Just like Esperanto,
Interlingua works.

(Incidentally, you mentioned Glosa.  Please understand that Glosa is
substantially different from its origins in Hogben's original
Interglossa.  Glosa is largely, although not entirely, relexified
English with seriously distorted vocabulary, whereas Interglossa was
not.)

> ====================================
>> [Paul]
>> Date:	Sat, 4 Dec 2010 16:45:29 -0500

> My eyes are seriously bloodshot from how much I've been reading these
> last several days.  I thought it was pink-eye.  So many languages!  I
> just want one...  I don't have a linguistics background, I'm just a
> guy who wants the world to speak one auxlang that is *not* English.

Many people take a similar position.  Unfortunately, perhaps, there are
so many choices!  Further unfortunately, there are those who seem to
take the attitude, "What I personally favor or nothing!" an attitude
which is seriously counterproductive.  If conIAL X were to come into
relatively widespread usage and were generally easier to learn and use
than most natlangs, then I should support it, even if it is one that I
myself have not advocated.  (Would you support Interlingua if *in fact*
it became relatively widespread?  I would say that it is generally
easier to learn and use than English.)

>> Yes, (con)IALs have often not been taken seriously as "real"
>> languages, even though some of them have become real, living
>> languages.  For example, there are professional linguists who do not
>> consider them "real" languages, considering them "fake" languages. 
>> (There are a few exceptions.)
>
> It angers me to know there are only a few exceptions. I ranted to
> myself at length recently about this.  The three groups of people who
> should be in lockstep with the view on auxlangs are translators,
> linguists, and those who create the languages.  How can a
> professional linguist, the one who knows all about language, write
> off a constructed language as not having the depth to express what
> must be expressed?  They somehow think it's meant to replace a mother
> tongue.  Well by the time it got to that stage it'd have morphed like
> a natural language to be capable of doing just that.  But it's not
> *supposed* to replace a mother tongue.  How can they not get this
> simple point?  It took me 10 seconds to 'get it'.

My own speculation is that professional linguists and translators /
interpreters have something of a vested interest in national languages.

>> For over a hundred years there have been proposals to "improve"
>> Esperanto.  Nevertheless it has moved far beyond the "project" stage
>> and is a living language.  I do not consider myself an E-ist, but I
>> acknowledge this fact.
>
> I will acknowledge it too. It's just a tough pill to swallow.

Once again, do I support the constructed international auxiliary
language principle, or will I only accept and promote the one *I* like?

>> As another poster replied, trying to change E-o is about like trying
>> to reform English spelling: there have been many attempts, but all
>> of them have failed.  At one time I subscribed to the usual three
>> objections to Esperanto, but I no longer do.  Given the diversity of
>> the world's languages and their orthographic systems (particularly
>> in this computer age), I no longer consider these objections to be
>> "show stoppers."
>
> Agreed, not show stoppers, but repellent enough for newcomers to say
> "wut" and leave.  Like a new social network interface that's hard to
> use and confusing and "hardly anyone uses it anyway".

Nevertheless, there are many new users of E-o, despite a "wut" factor. 
Take a look at a major E-o teaching site such as lernu! 
(http://en.lernu.net).  I for one do not at all consider E-o
"repellent," and I do not consider myself an Esperantist.

>>> From my casual review of Esperanto and Mondlango it seems Mondlango
>>> is a better idea but too much of a change to thrive without some
>>> official backing.
>>
>> My personal estimate is that projects such as Mondlango have
>> approximately a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding,
>> particularly in the light of English, which is the most successful
>> international auxiliary language (just not a constructed one) in the
>> entire history of the planet.
>
> I see what you're saying. I think for an auxlang to have any chance,
> it needs massive support.  One choice with good promotion and a clear
> advantage for the learner.

Of course, many proponents would argue that you are describing
Esperanto. :)

> Are you of the mind that there is no point in even thinking that an
> auxlang can compete with English?  Your essay implies not, but some
> of your posts push me back to the question.

Not at all.  I genuinely support the idea of a conIAL which is nobody's
national / ethnic language, but I recognize that in practice today, any
conIAL has to have a mighty push against English.

-- 
Paul Bartlett

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