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CONLANG  January 2011, Week 2

CONLANG January 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Sketch of a new nonlinear writing system

From:

Sai <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 14 Jan 2011 08:57:33 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:22 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Since narrative, like human experience, unfolds through time,

This is an assumption on your part—one that I don't think is necessarily valid.

That's kinda the point: I think there are nonlinear, non
temporally-bound methods of narrative.

> the representation of time calls for a dimension corresponding to time.

Sure, if there is a necessary time component.

> But an unboundedly 2D representational system would allow for simultaneous
> narrative threads.

Certainly. But that's, IMO, a much more limited thing to aspire to
than its potential.

> If conversations are to be possible in this language, don't you need to
> build that in from the start, e.g. so that there are ways of telling who
> said what?

a) Why do you need to know that? When done live, it's patently obvious
in many cases who is writing by its content. If someone is asserting
an opinion, then they can attach their name to it. I'm not so sure
it's necessary to devote a whole information channel to this.

b) There are ways you could do this—e.g. pen color or style. But I'm
skeptical of assuming it as a requirement.

> Or do you envisage the creation of the text unfolding through time, so that
> speakers take turns in augmenting (or emending) the collaborative text?

Yes—though I'm not so sure about the 'taking turns' bit either.

AFAICT, the native NLWS conversational style is collaborative writing,
not some sort of discretized back-and-forth.

> That would a nightmare to try to develop an orthography for, not that a language
> necessarily needs an orthography, of course. (Methods of recording and
> playback would  make an orthography unnecessaryish.)

What do you mean by 'orthography' here?

We are completely discounting as desiderata any linearization, reified
spoken mode, etc. This is meant to be, ahead of all other things, a
writing system that takes maximal advantage of its medium.

> I'm still struggling to articulate my question. I think I'm interested in
> what the unboundedly 2D language can do that ordinary-mode language can't,
> and vice versa, and what it does better and worse that ordinary-mode
> language. I wasn't able, from your short expository document, to see clearly
> which elements are contingent on the unboundedly 2D mode. So I guess my
> question is: which bits of the design are made possible by the unboundedly
> 2D mode?

Right. So, first off I'd point to Sky's page on this:
http://ouwi.org/apology.html

My own POV, not yet well elaborated (hopefully that'll happen in a
joint paper w/ Alex & Sky for Fiat Lingua), here are a few things that
are unique:
* non forced parse order = greater reader control of content
* direct expression of semantic relationships = harder to be Orwellian
or obfuscatory, deprecation of paraphrasis (and attendant silly
excesses of anti-'plagiarism'), clearer overall structure for
comprehension
* better semantic compression through reduction of repetition
* easy expressability of linearly difficult concepts - e.g. ones that
are enmeshed or circular
* (not in UNLWS, but in future computer-native ones) interactively
'fractal' display of detail - so the zoomed out version displays
overall story, zooming in gives you arbitrary level of component
detail

… etc. Frankly I don't think I know most of the potential; I just see
it as an unfilled niche, and one that feels intuitively like it ought
to turn up some interesting consequences.

> Livagian,

URL?

> for example, has an ideal mode that is unboundedly 2D (-- 'ideal'
> in that it exists only as an idea, and is not actually used (in Livagia),
> other than as s method for diagramming syntactic structure).

Would be interesting to see that version at least.

> Pretty much the
> entirety of Livagian's small syntax is concerned with showing where
> arguments of different predicates have the same value. In the 2D mode, this
> is done by using a tabular grid in which there is one row for predicates,
> with one predicate per column, and one row per argument value. If argument
> value X1 and X2 respectively occupy argument-places Y1 and Y2 of predicate
> Z, the (open-class) symbol for Z is placed on the predicate row, and in the
> Z column the (closed-class) symbol for Y1 and Y2 are respectively placed in
> the X1 and X2 rows. The upshot of this scheme is that in the 2D mode, the
> extra dimension takes care of all syntax but of nothing but syntax.

*nod*

We considered and discarded the notion of a grid-based system as
excessively and unusefully constrained. Pinuyo, for instance, seems to
me fairly limited by its assumption of concepts like this.

But hey, prove me wrong. :-)

- Sai

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