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CONLANG  January 2011, Week 4

CONLANG January 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Not fixing anything (was: Fixing English)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:00:47 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (134 lines)

I said in my last email "But I guess this is getting a bit 
off topic" and I certainly do not want to discuss the pros 
and cons of Esperanto. If I did, I would subscribe to other 
list.

But I feel I've been misrepresented and would like try to 
put the record straight.

On 21/01/2011 22:26, Douglas Koller wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R A
> Brown"<[log in to unmask]>
[snip]
> -------- I have no axes to grind with Esperanto, and if I
> did, I know there are other places to go. And Zammenhof
> is dead. But as Ray alludes to about all the "j's",

'Twas _not_ I that alluded to all those Js.  I was merely 
responding to the claim that ancient Greek was to blame for 
them.

> if
> you just replaced them with with "i's" for the plural
> (and that would not be utterly illogical), then who would
> care?

Esperantists obviously - as historically there was 
resistance even when Zamenhof suggested a change.  But as 
for myself, then it really matters not at all.  Novial forms 
its plurals in -s. That doesn't make me rush to embrace it.

My attitude to auxlangs, I thought, was well enough known. I 
say on one of my web-pages:
{quote}
  I have very much the same misgivings about the concept of 
artificial auxiliary languages as those expressed by Rick 
Harrison in his "farewell to auxiliary languages".
{/quote}
See:
http://www.rickharrison.com/language/farewell.html

> Is Italian not one of the "languages of love"
> (opting for the 1st and 2nd declension nominative
> plurals), and not hideous?

This is not correct.  While in the 2nd declension the 
nominative plural clearly survived in things like _amico_ 
[amiko[ ~ _amici_ [amitSi], the feminine _amica_ [amika] ~ 
_amiche_ [amike] should make us pause for thought.

What about all the words derived from the 3rd declension, 
e.g. padre ~ padri; madre ~ madri  ?

Consider also the second person singular forms of Italian 
verbs.  It becomes apparent that the final -s became voiced 
[z] and then weakened to a semi-vowel [j].  The ending -i of 
the plural of _padre_ and _madre_ developed from Vulgar 
Latin -es.

Also we know we graffiti and from the evidence of Old French 
and Old Proven├žal that the Classical Latin feminine 
nominative -ae simply did not figure in the spoken language 
which maintained the older Latin -as ending for the 
nominative.  The plural -e in Italian is derived from the 
Vulgar Latin -as.

But - and it was not I who referred to the Js as "hideous" - 
for what it is worth (and in view of my attitude to 
auxlangs, it's not worth much), I personally (i.e. 
*subjectively*) find Ido's -o [sing.] ~ -i {plural] 
preferable to E-o's -o ~ -oj.

But IMO this is not the appropriate list to argue over this.

> If Esperanto went for 'a more
> thoughtful "-s" plural', that would be jarring against a
> (I'm free-forming) Greek singular accusative "-n"?

Please don't take 'a more thoughtful' out of context.  What 
I was trying to say was:
- Don't blame ancient Greek for the exclusive use of plural -j.
- A more thoughtful use of ancient Greek would IMO have 
suggested an -s plural.

It is true that -n is found as an accusative ending in 
ancient Greek; but all the very many 3rd declension 
consonant stems have -a as the accusative singular ending. 
There word, surely, have been nothing awkward with an 
accusative plural -as.

> Esperanto is con flexione and a done deal.

I know - it dates back to the late 19th century. Let me make 
it clear:
- I am not criticizing Esperanto or, for that matter, Zamenhof.
- I did not say that the Js were hideous.
- I tried to say that although Zamenhof sort of got the -j 
idea from ancient Greek, the ancient language itself would 
surely have more strongly suggested -s.

In other words, I was reacting to "And do I remember right 
that the plural "-j" in Esperanto is a direct borrowing from 
Greek?  Is Greek equally hideous?"

In short, the way final [j] is used in Esperanto and ancient 
Greek is not comparable and, therefore, the question "Is 
Greek equally hideous?" is IMO not a valid one.

[snip]
>---------- Gee,
> you invoke the word "mellifluous", and suddenly
> everyone's hopping on board to use it. :)

I don't think two people constitute "everyone". My point was 
simply that:
- 'mellifluous' is a _subjective_ thing; it's in the ear of 
the listener.
- the objection often raised about the Esperanto -j, -jn 
seems to me more often than not to be one of the aesthetic 
look of the thing on the page; i.e. once again something 
_subjective_ - in the eye of the beholder.

I had hoped the odd smiley or two would make it clear that 
the expansion of those two points was not altogether serious 
- sigh.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]

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