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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  February 2011, Week 2

CONLANG February 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Infinitives? (was: The verb "to want")

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:18:40 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (168 lines)

On 10/02/2011 20:49, Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 21:53:38 +0100, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
> <[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>>
>> Portuguese (at least in Europe, I don't know about Brazilian Portuguese) is
>> well known for having a so-called "personal infinitive", i.e. an infinitive
>> form that takes personal endings to indicate the subject of the infinitive.
>> Would this personal infinitive be allowed in this construction?
>>
>
> Do "personal infinitives" really count as infinitives?

They do in Portuguese   :)

> I thought the main thing that distinguished infinitives from other verbal nouns
> was that infinitives lacked any trace of a subject.

No - that would mean that impersonal verbs, in languages 
that allow them, would be infinitives. They clearly are not.

> An infinitive that has to agree with its subject, even if only in person, wouldn't
> quite be infinitive, would it?
>
> It would be some other non-finite form of the verb, right?

Too simplistic, because .....
------------------------------------------
On 11/02/2011 04:33, Roger Mills wrote:
[snip]
 > That could be arbitrary. For that matter, you could say
 > that in Engl. "I want _you to go_" you is the "subject"
 > of to go. And IIRC Latin had a common construction _Acc.
 > + infinitive_ that stood in for many subordinate clauses
 > ("that" clauses in Engl.), where the acc. noun was the
 > subject of the clause/infinitive.

Exactly!  In fact _you to go_ is acc. & infinitive in 
English, as we see if we have a different pronoun, e.g. "I 
want them to go."

The same construction was also known in ancient Greek and 
AFAIK occurs in many languages; the distinguishing feature 
of Classical Latin is that it became the most common 
construction for a noun clause serving as the object of main 
verb.

[snip]
 > AFAIK, the term "personal infinitive" is unique to
 > Portuguese, so I suppose they're free to call it whatever
 > they want. Such a construction does not occur in any
 > other Romance lang. to my knowledge.

Sort of. I've generally thought of the personal infinitive 
rather like the English "my going", "your staying" etc, e.g.
"If you don't mind my saying that ...."

I would not be surprised if some languages that expressed 
possession by personal suffixes did not add such suffixes to 
the 'verbal noun', i.e. infinitive.
---------------------------------------------------
On 10/02/2011 21:07, Eldin Raigmore wrote:
 > Wikipedia says:
[snip]

What Wikipedia 'says' is only as good as the person/people 
who wrote the article.  It's often interesting to have a 
look at the 'Discussion' page.

[snip]
 >
 > That makes it a kind of "shopping list" or "family 
resemblance" definition.

Indeed - the phrases "shopping list" and "laundry list" do 
occur  on the Discussion page   ;)
 >
 > Which of those do Portuguese's "personal infinitives" have?

"They function as other lexical categories — usually nouns — 
within the clauses that contain them, for example by serving 
as the subject of another verb."

É bom dormires = Where _dormires_ is the subject of the verb 
"to be"
Your sleeping is is good.
It is good that you sleep.
etc.

 > How about other
 > Romance languages' "personal infinitives" (those that 
have them)?

They don't have them.
------------------------------------------------------

On 10/02/2011 20:58, Patrick Dunn wrote:
 > IIRC, the defining characteristic is more that they lack
 > any hint of tense or aspect.  In Latin you had future,
 > past, and present participles, but only the infinitive.
 > Both could be treated as nouns, of course, IIRC.

No, no - Latin had a synthetic present and perfect active 
infinitive and a present passive infinitive, e.g.
scribere - to write
scripsisse - to have written
scribi - to be written

It also had analytical constructions for the other "missing" 
ones, i.e.
scripturus esse - to be going to write [future active]
scriptus esse - to have been written [perfect passive]
scriptum iri - to be about to be written

The first two above are made up a participle with the 
present infinitive of "to be", and the particle had to agree 
with whatever was going to be written or had been written 
(if you see what I mean) - ooh! agreement with the 'subject' 
of the infinitive   ;)

_scriptum iri_ is the unchanging 'supine' with the present 
*passive* infinitive of "to go". That verb could, unlike 
English, have a passive infinitive because it could be used 
impersonally in the passive    :)

Cf.
scriptum itur - on va écrire - one/people/they/we [etc] are 
going to write.

Latin needed the "full set" of infinitives for the 
accusative & infinitive construction.  Just for fun, the 
verb "to be", which always likes to be different, alone had 
a _synthetic future active infinitive_ as an alternative to 
the analytical one, i.e.
esse = to be
fuisse = to have been
fore = futurum esse = to be going to be     ;)

FWIW Trask defines infinitive thus:
"A non-finite form of the verb occurring in some (but not 
all) languages and typically serving to express the meaning 
of the verb in the abstract, with no marking for or 
restriction in tense, aspect, mood or person (though some 
languages exhibit two or more infinitives distinguished in 
tense or aspect) ..... Infinitives are most often used as 
complements of other verb ...."

Arguably the Latin distinction are ones of aspect rather 
than tense in the strict sense of that verb.

Notice that Trask wisely says "typically" above.  The 
Portuguese personal infinitive is used as a complement of 
other verbs.  I cannot serve as a main verb.

Unless senility really has set in, I am sure it was not so 
very long ago that there was a thread on this list 
discussing infinitives and gerunds.  IMO it would be worth 
looking back at that.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]

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