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CONLANG  February 2011, Week 2

CONLANG February 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Non-subject relativization strategies

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:33:25 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

On 12/02/2011 13:54, 1 2 wrote:
[sip]
> I would like to ask some questions about non-subject relativization
> (construction of relative clauses referring to noun phrases which are not the
> subject of the verb inside the relative clause; they are, for instance, its
> object, instrument, place, etc.).
>
> Just to clarify what I'm trying to say, a subject relativization would be, for
> example:
> English: "This is the man who sells hamburgers."
> Here, "who", referring to "man", is the subject of the verb "sells".

Yes, often expressed in ancient Greek by using the definite 
article and a participle:
οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀνήρ ὁ ὀρύας πωλῶν
houtos estin ho anēr ho oryas    pōlōn
This   is   the man the sausages selling.
(The ancients didn't have hamburgers)  :)

_oryas_ (sausages) is accusative plural.  All the rest 
except, of course, _estin_ (is) is nominative singular.

I had originally attempted to form TAKE relative clauses 
after this model; but the problem came with.....

> Now, examples of NON-subject relativization in languages which use relative
> pronouns:
> English: "This is the knife 'with which' I cut the bread."

Very formal - no one would say that. The normal English is:
"This is the knife I cut the bread with."

Modern spoken English there is no relative pronoun in in 
'non-subject' relative clauses.

> Portuguese: "Essa é a faca 'com a qual' eu cortei o pão."
> Here, "with which"/"com a qual", referring to "knife"/"faca", is the instrument of
> the verb "cut"/"cortei", and not its subject.
> The examples above use the relative pronoun "which"/"a qual" with the
> preposition "with"/"com".

Yep - the current revision of TAKE has brought back the 
relative pronoun ὅ (hó) and this will be governed by a 
preposition, just like the Portuguese example.

  τόδε ἔς το μαίχαρα συν ὅ ἐμέ κόπτε το ἄρτο.
['tɔdɛ ɛs tɔ 'majxara syn hɔ ɛ'mɛ 'kɔptɛ to 'arto]
τόδε ἔς το μαίχαρα = this is the knife
συν ὅ = with which
ἐμέ κόπτε το ἄρτο = I cut the bread

> In languages with declension, this pronoun would assume a declined form.
> For example, Sanskrit (in ITRANS transliteration scheme, without sandhi):
> yena astram shatrUn hanmi etad asti.
> "This is the weapon (etad asti astram) with which (yena) I kill the enemies
> (shatrUn hanmi)".

Yep - and Latin:
hoc est telum quo hostes occido
hoc est telum = This is the weapon
quo [ablative sing.] = with which
hostes occido = I kill the enemy

>
> My questions are:
> - What are other possible strategies for non-subject relativization?

The modern English way with no relative    :)
-------------------------------------

On 12/02/2011 16:01, Logan Kearsley wrote:
 > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Philip 
Newton<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
 >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 14:54, 1 2<[log in to unmask]> 
  wrote:
 >>> - What are other possible strategies for non-subject 
relativization?
 >>
 >> Some simply disallow it (just as English can't 
relativise things such
 >> as "This is the man that my wife is the daughter of 
Sandy and ___").
 >
 > Personally, I don't find any problem with that sentence.

I wouldn't put Sandy in that position. I'd say -
"This is Sandy, the man my wife is the daughter of, and ...."

No problem with that one   ;)

[snip]
 >
 > Lots of languages use participles&  participial phrases 
as equivalents
 > to relatives. This restricts what you can relativize to 
whatever roles
 > you have participles for.

True - as I found out with TAKE.

 >  English is pretty cool in its ability to use
 > dangling prepositions to form participles for pretty much 
arbitrary
 > cases

Yep.

 > (e.g. "The paper written yesterday" vs. "The paper 
written on by
 > my nephew" vs. "The crayon written with by my nephew"). 
That would
 > allow you to eliminate relative clauses entirely, and 
inspired a
 > similar derivational system in Gogido.

You could indeed - but I couldn't justify so-called 
'dangling prepositions' in TAKE    :(


-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]

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