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CONLANG  February 2011, Week 2

CONLANG February 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Non-subject relativization strategies

From:

Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:10:08 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (135 lines)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "R A Brown" <[log in to unmask]> 
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 2:33:25 PM 
Subject: Re: Non-subject relativization strategies 

On 12/02/2011 13:54, 1 2 wrote: 
[sip] 
> I would like to ask some questions about non-subject relativization 
> (construction of relative clauses referring to noun phrases which are not the 
> subject of the verb inside the relative clause; they are, for instance, its 
> object, instrument, place, etc.). 
> 
> Just to clarify what I'm trying to say, a subject relativization would be, for 
> example: 
> English: "This is the man who sells hamburgers." 
> Here, "who", referring to "man", is the subject of the verb "sells". 
________________________________ 

Géarthnuns: 

Chö hengebs la chö dhaubs, chöb la sauk zheterlíkramürsauch shath sho, nöi. 
the this-nom. pres. the man-nom., who-nom. pres. indef./pl. hamburger-acc./pl. sell SHO, be. 
________________________________ 

Yes, often expressed in ancient Greek by using the definite 
article and a participle: 
οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀνήρ ὁ ὀρύας πωλῶν 
houtos estin ho anēr ho oryas pōlōn 
This is the man the sausages selling. 
(The ancients didn't have hamburgers) :) 
________________________________ 

Also available in Géarthnuns (we have hamburgers, but): 

Chö hengebs la chö dhaubs (höi) sek vlangethsech shathalöb nöi. 
the this-nom. pres. the man-nom. (HÕI) indef./pl. sausage-acc./pl. selling-nom. be. 
____________________________ 

_oryas_ (sausages) is accusative plural. All the rest 
except, of course, _estin_ (is) is nominative singular. 
_______________________________ 

Yeah, What is up with that? estin 
_______________________________ 

I had originally attempted to form TAKE relative clauses 
after this model; but the problem came with..... 

> Now, examples of NON-subject relativization in languages which use relative 
> pronouns: 
> English: "This is the knife 'with which' I cut the bread." 

[snip] 

Yep - the current revision of TAKE has brought back the 
relative pronoun ὅ (hó) and this will be governed by a 
preposition, just like the Portuguese example. 

τόδε ἔς το μαίχαρα συν ὅ ἐμέ κόπτε το ἄρτο. 
['tɔdɛ ɛs tɔ 'majxara syn hɔ ɛ'mɛ 'kɔptɛ to 'arto] 
τόδε ἔς το μαίχαρα = this is the knife 
συν ὅ = with which 
ἐμέ κόπτε το ἄρτο = I cut the bread 
_______________________________ 

Chau hengers la chau zdörs, chauraun sí lé chau horsaut chafaz sho, nöi. 
the this-nom. pres. the knife-nom., which-instr. I-nom. past the bread-acc. cut SHO, be. 
_______________________________ 

> In languages with declension, this pronoun would assume a declined form. 
> For example, Sanskrit (in ITRANS transliteration scheme, without sandhi): 
> yena astram shatrUn hanmi etad asti. 
> "This is the weapon (etad asti astram) with which (yena) I kill the enemies 
> (shatrUn hanmi)". 

Yep - and Latin: 
hoc est telum quo hostes occido 
hoc est telum = This is the weapon 
quo [ablative sing.] = with which 
hostes occido = I kill the enemy 
___________________________ 

Chü hengeks la chü körhöks, chükün sí la chü ndesemeksüt nggavökh sho, nöi. 
the this-nom. pres. the weapon-nom. which-instr. I-nom. pres. the enemy-acc. kill SHO, be. 
_______________________________ 

[snip] 

> Lots of languages use participles& participial phrases 
as equivalents 
> to relatives. This restricts what you can relativize to 
whatever roles 
> you have participles for. 

True - as I found out with TAKE. 
_____________________________ 

And I had never thought about it before, but that also holds true for Géarthnuns. 
________________________________ 

> English is pretty cool in its ability to use 
> dangling prepositions to form participles for pretty much 
arbitrary 
> cases 

Yep. 

> (e.g. "The paper written yesterday" vs. "The paper 
written on by 
> my nephew" vs. "The crayon written with by my nephew"). 
That would 
> allow you to eliminate relative clauses entirely, and 
inspired a 
> similar derivational system in Gogido. 
_________________________________ 

Could one get away with (maybe not): 

"das von meinem Neffen darauf geschriebene Papier" 
"das darauf von meinem Neffen geschriebene Papier" 

or 

"der von meinem Neffen damit geschriebene Kreide" 
"der damit von meinem Neffen geschriebene Kreide" (not especially conversational, I realize)? 

You could indeed - but I couldn't justify so-called 
'dangling prepositions' in TAKE :( 
_________________________________ 

Nor I with Géarthnuns. 

Kou 

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