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CONLANG  March 2011, Week 1

CONLANG March 2011, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Fantasy Conlang Universals

From:

Daniel Bowman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:21:44 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (247 lines)

>
> While in my opinion, fantasy doesn't have to be foreign or happen in
> foreign places to be good. Westerns are basically fantasy that happens
> in Oklahoma and Arkansas, for example. That said, I certainly see your
> point and agree with it to a large degree. Again, I think a lot of the
> lack of foreignness you see in fantasy speaks volumes about the market
> we're looking at. Any writer who writes for his bread has to balance
> the realities of the market with the complexities of his art. In other
> words, if you make your story or location too foreign, you might risk
> not being published at all. This is why characters and "non-human" races
> in fantasy and sci-fi are pretty much 100% human, when you get right down
> to it.
>

Yeah, I agree, and I'm not setting out to write a novel about aliens. So
very few novels are written that deal with a truly alien intelligence (the
movie Solaris is a good example, as I recall) but I'm not up to (or
interested in) that challenge.

Originally, the Angosey (the speakers of Angosey) were aliens. Then I
realized that if they were aliens, I didn't really care about them, nor
could I do much with them. So, in concert with my reading of philosophic
and religious texts through college and on my own, I began to conceive of
the Angosey in a different way. I began to see them more as a divine force
than an "alien". As they become more and more human-like, Angosey is the
first "language" they begin to speak. So in my novel, the written Angosey
would just be a shadow on the wall of the true, inarticulate, divine
language.

That being said, the languages my characters encounter will not be Angosey.
They will be human languages, spoken by human beings inhabiting the world of
Angayus. The humans are living mostly in ignorance of the Angosey. Versions
of the Angosian language may be spoken by certain populations (and I will
enjoy putting in those references). My characters will interact with other
humans, for the most part, but occasionally they will be in the presence of
this divine power called the Angosey.


>
> We relate to humans, we understand humans, we intuitively get the human
> experience. Having never met anything close to an alien intelligence, we
> don't really have a basis upon which to fantasise. Even when we try to
> portray something alien, we often end up with a human in a costume. I
> think this has long been a criticism of Star Trek, for example. Now, I
> believe that the whole point of ST wasn't so much to faithfully present
> a likely alien culture so much as to kind of explore human traits, be they
> the logic and unemotion of Spock or the barely contained violence and
> raw power of Worf.
>

I really had to take on the attitude you portray in the last sentence before
I could watch Star Trek. At first I would think to myself, aren't these
just people with funny looking ears/head ridges?

>
> I do think that the inability to communicate would be a good asset to
> your story, if it's not overdone. Perhaps, since you mention two humans
> travelling to another planet, there could be a lot of dialog among those
> two, working through the obstacle and trying to overcome the communication
> barrier. Through the medium of their shared struggle, we the reader can
> share in their difficulties without being bogged down too much in technical
> jargon or a lot of foreign gibberish text. Balance will be the key, as
> I'm sure you're aware!
>

I'm glad you think the idea will work. That is precisely why I need two
humans from Earth. They have to be able to discuss it with each other. I
also don't want to invent an entirely self-contained world like
Middle-Earth, where the culture and assumptions of the characters have to be
constructed within that world. My main characters will be from Earth, from
America. My readers will have a good understanding of their basic
foundations already-that frees me to get on with the story.

>
> > Part of the plot involves two people from Earth actually
> > traveling to this
> > conworld in search of a girl. It is these two people
> > that have to make a
> > journey, with the girl's older sister to guide them.
> > Since the conworld of
> > Angayus has no relation with Earth, the Earthlings are at
> > square one: they
> > don't know anything about the language or the
> > culture. The older sister
> > obviously knows the language of her native city (and also
> > English to some
> > degree), but as they travel on even her knowledge becomes
> > spotty or
> > nonexistent.
>
> I'm assuming that Angayus is earthlike enough so that they won't die of
> some horrible disease within a week.


A good point. I think they should get pretty sick at least once or twice
(the experiences of my compatriots in Tanzania will inspire me, luckily, my
stomach is iron, so I will not have to speak from personal experience :-))
Granted, an entirely different world would probably have such radically
divergent diseases that any cross-world communication would result in the
annihilation of one or both parties. We'll just have to sweep that one
under the rug and give me some literary license :P


> Or spread terrestrial pandemics
> among the locals! Although, that could serve as an interesting side plot.
> Are the people of Angayus humans? Or something like humans? Or are you
> trying for utterly alien?
>

Humans in the presence of the divine, as I wrote earlier.

I'm thinking that the girl brings something like the flu that does
eventually spread across our world, but not a deadly disease. Just another
clue before I reveal her true otherworldly origin.


>
> > I really want to make the story visceral. I want the
> > characters to suffer
> > privation and hunger, the weather, getting sick, cultural
> > misunderstandings,
> > and of course the struggle with the languages, all cast as
> > impediments
> > towards their final goal.
>
> How would the Angayusians react to wandering off-worlders? Would they
> try to help (by teaching some of their language or offering food and
> shelter), or would they ignore the strange little foreigners?
>

Given that the human communities are quite diverse, no one would react to
the travelers as if they were from another planet. They would just assume
they were from somewhere far, far away on Angayus. I look forward to scenes
similar to the ones I encountered doing geology field work in Tanzania, when
the Maasai women and children would issue forth from the village and follow
me around, asking why I was hitting rocks.

BTW the Maasai think the word "rock" is hilarious for some reason. Either
it just sounds funny, or maybe it has some unexpected meaning.


>
> > JRRT had Sauron, Robert Jordan had the Dark One, for me
> > Angayus itself will
> > be almost enemy enough (recall the discussion last month on
> > the mechanics of
> > a trinary star system and wobbling planetary axes-that's
> > Angayus!).
>
> Well, I've been nomail for several years, so am afraid I missed that
> discussion!
>

Let's just say I was very impressed by the celestial mechanics knowledge
available on the CONLANG list!


>
> > I want to de-romanticize certain parts of the
> > journey. I think it will make
> > the story stronger, not weaker.
>
> I think that could work. There are some good fantasies out there that
> work towards deromanticisation. Life as a wandering hero was undoubtedly
> dirty, damp, uncomfortable and hard all around. Yet books and movies
> never seem to dwell overmuch on the privation such wanderers face!
>
> > > If you just threw some Angosey at
> > > your reader as if to say the characters have to deal
> > with this, and so
> > > you will too, that could be pretty effective.
> > >
> >
> > Hmm. Didn't think of that, but I like it. The
> > reader would get
> > translations only if the characters understood.
>
> Sounds reasonable.
>
> > Otherwise, both parties are
> > baffled. The one trouble I have is rendering the
> > various conlangs' orthography.
>
> Keep it simple and always remember who your audience is. If you're looking
> to publish broadly, chances are good there will not be (m)any
> lingsuiticians or conlangers in that audience. There are going to be more
> fans of fantasy looking for a good story, not a lecture on the uses of
> the aorist stems in -e- form nouns.
>

Furthermore, the characters in the book wouldn't be describing aorist stems
anyway, they are not linguists. And I wouldn't even be able to follow a
book like that, unless I kept Wikipedia handy!


>
> > For example, if I didn't know French, and you spoke it to me,
> > and I tried to transliterate it, I would be wildly
> > off.
>
> Well, you can see this to an extent by reading Kreyol texts. Clearly the
> sound is French, but the orthography is not exactly Parisian!
>
> > Ditto even for
> > Kiswahili, which has a pretty intuitive spelling once you
> > get to know it.
> > But I might just sweep that under the rug by making sure
> > not to use lots of
> > fancy diacretics, thereby preventing the question of how
> > the characters knew
> > that "u" needed a circumflex.
>
> Indeed. Here, I think you're going to need a compromise. Unless one of
> the travellers is a linguistics student (or a conlanger), chances are
> good they're going to hear and interpret Angosey VERY wrongly. Assuming
> the locals have "normal" vocal apparatus, there's a good chance they
> will mishear points of articulation, and will almost certainly get any
> tones or lengthening/shortening wrong.
>

Or I could have a (native) character say, "Seredaya issha Dantayaga-na" and
the Earth character say to his friend: "What did he just say, 'Shed aya ish
Dantigan?"

A good guide, actually, is having an English speaker try to read Angosey.
It's pretty funny some of the pronunciations they come up with, especially
when they are trying to do it quickly.


>
> Just try not to make it look like an ugly anglicisation. To go back to
> French for example, look at "shmapell shah". Does that look aesthetic?
> It obviously doesn't look French, so you'd have to decide how literal
> a transcription you want and also how wrong the travellers hear Angosey.
>
> One thing you might do is try to introduce some "good Angosey", perhaps
> by the travellers starting to recognise some writing. Signs, and similar.
> In that way, you can introduce your "good" transcription and begin to
> correct their mistakes.
>
> I agree, you don't want to be introducing diacritics and IPA and other
> stuff that they wouldn't know. Though, of course, you could also write an
> appendix and perhaps a glossary to describe some of that information.
>
> Padraic
>

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November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
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July 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 3

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