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CONLANG  March 2011, Week 4

CONLANG March 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Instrumental Pronouns

From:

vii iiix <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:39:09 +1100

Content-Type:

text/plain

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@Niklay, thanks mate and I didn.t know you could do this with Russian. ^^ Hopefully I'll be  learning it soo too :D.

Anyway, I havent thought of this, it definately would be a really interesting idea and someting cool to have. I'll think on it. Thanks ^^
I suppose it would also make sense, if I can have this meaning with pronouns why not normal nouns, though then tere would have to be another and slightly more different inflection for INST. case, unless I used the same and relied on word order to tell the difference between the two... You ahve me thinking now :D

Cheers


> Can you expand it to say something like "He was killed with a sword by my
> brother (or by the king, or by accident)?"
> 
> stevo
> 
> 2011/3/22 vii iiix <[log in to unmask]>
> 
> > Thanks guys, that sorted a lot of things out.
> > I have the Instrumental case for nouns and my intention was to have the
> > instrumental pronoun used for agency, in the sense that
> >
> > boss lyndarmele etha brymloness
> >
> > boss lyndar-mele etha brymlon-ess
> >
> > 3.SG.ABS. Sword-INST. 1.SG.INST. Kill.PST
> >
> > He was killed with a sword [by me/used by me]
> >
> > Does that make better sense? Thoguh I wanted to have the restriction where
> > you wouldnt be able to use the instrumental pronoun unless you had a noun
> > inflected in the instrumental case, as the pronoun is only to show who used
> > said instrument to do the action/killing or whatever. The passive version
> > would be
> >
> > boss sa bryml˘ness
> >
> > 3.SG.ABS. 1.SG.ERG Kill.PST [passive done through ablaut]
> >
> > he was killed [by me]
> >
> > OR you could leave the 1.SG.ERG out, the sentence being simply - boss
> > bryml˘ness > he was killed
> >
> > > > I mean for example would an instrumental pronoun have a gloss of
> > something
> > > > akin to;
> > > > boss etha brymloness
> >  > > He Me+Inst. kill+PST
> > > > Meaning He was killed [by me] but wouldnt this just be passive.
> > > >
> > >
> > > yes, if *brymloness* means "[he] was killed," then your sentence makes
> > > sense, if you're allowing the instrumental to be used for agency.  in
> > some
> > > languages a distinction is made between agency and instrument, i.e. you
> > > could have the *thing* that "he" was killed *with* in the instrumental,
> > and
> > > the person he was killed *by* (i.e. "me") in some other case, or with a
> > > special particle attached, or whatever.  latin, for instance, uses the
> > > ablative case for both agency and instrument, but for instrument there is
> > no
> > > preposition attached, and for agency the preposition Ó/ab "by" is
> > > obligatory.  so a similar sentence to your own could read:
> > > ille gladio a me interfectus est.
> > > he-NOM sword-ABL by 1s-ABL killed is
> > > *he was killed by me with a sword.*
> > > **
> > > but, if your language uses the instrumental case for agency, it's up to
> > you
> > > to decide how to distinguish between instrument (the sword) and the agent
> > > (me), if you even want the speakers of your language to make that
> > > distinction.
> > >
> > > happy 'langing
> > > matt
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 3:49 AM, vii iiix <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know of any natlangs that have instrumental pronouns? I was
> > > > sure there were some though I can;t find any at the moment. If anyone
> > > > knows of any could they please also provide examples. I am thinking of
> > > > in corporating them into my conlang, though also what would the most
> > > > logical meaning of an instrumental pronoun be?
> > > > I mean for example would an instrumental pronoun have a gloss of
> > something
> > > > akin to;
> > > >
> > > > bess etha brymloness
> > > > He Me+Inst. kill+PST
> > > > Meaning He was killed [by me] but wouldnt this just be passive.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I am just confised because of lack of sleep at the moment.
> > > > Cheers
> >
> >
 		 	   		  

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