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CONLANG  March 2011, Week 4

CONLANG March 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conlang Romanization Help Needed: Take 2!

From:

Samuel Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 Mar 2011 14:37:53 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

Well, if you're only going to have one accent it might not be so bad. And I guess a tilde is unusual enough to be interesting, but not so mental that the publishers have to break out a whole new font :) I am rather a diacritic fan when used in moderation (a, e, i, o and u are too few for the world's vowels)
"å" could work too, but I guess it's how your conworld fits.

I agree with those vowels i e a ã o u - I think having loads of tildes would be a bit crazy. Maybe double up, with "aa" for "ã" or vice-versa or whatever.

/j/ as "y" makes sense, but I guess it depends on the conlang's feel. With the expected audience though, I'm guessing replacing your "ã" with "y" and having "j" for /j/ is going to throw them.

Yeah, the glottal stop is always a tricky one. My personal preference is not for apostrophes, although I admit they do their job. But they do also work rather well for aspiration too. Maybe don't mark glottal stops or aspiration in the transcription.

Those "gh", "lh", etc ones are exactly how I'd do it tbh. So when it comes to "h" clusters, etc:

- don't mark them. I started doing this recently with my conlang and it hasn't been a biggy.
- use double consonants. I did this for a while. I assumed all initial consonants were not aspirated and so left them single. Then, all internal or final consonants were single when aspirated or double when unaspirated. Could you do a similar thing with your /h/ clusters?
- don't mark glottal stops with an apostrophe and use it instead in /h/ clusters (either as the /h/ or as the break)

I couldn't count myself among my narrative-theory class if I didn't ask who the assumed reader was (and also, whether, as the author, you really, when you get down to it, exist in any plausible sense? :D )

Apologies if this is somewhat confused, email not working properly

"Salu, Inspect’ Ana Brigantin, Metré’a-Polis. At fae fyun an horo, ofela, mae nihist des fé vis le morté de Natalìa Haeden."

________________________________________
From: Constructed Languages List [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of David Peterson [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 27 March 2011 11:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conlang Romanization Help Needed: Take 2!

Why on Earth is this e-mail having so much trouble getting through?! Are you using some sort of web interface...?

On Mar 26, 2011, at 9◊04 PM, J. Burke wrote:

> VOWELS
> i~ = i
> e = e
> a = a
> @~ = ã
> o = o
> u~ = u

Looks good, but I'd spell @ as "a" too. (This is just for readers, right?) I'd advocate having two romanization systems: A linguistic one and a reader-friendly one. The reader-friendly one shouldn't use diacritics. Another option is "a" for schwa and "aa" for [a].

What I'm imagining, though, is that if there's an appendix, readers could go see how the various names and words are actually spelled, plus some other information about the language. Then the linguistic romanization could serve as a kind of IPA for the reader.

> CONSONANTS & GLIDES
> t = t
> k = k
> d = d
> g = g
> s = s
> z = z
> n = n
> l = l
> r = r
> h = h
> j = y
> w = w
> ʔ = q

No English speaking reader will ever get this last one right—or even close. I'd use an apostrophe, or nothing. This will mean that words distinguished by a glottal stop will look the same, but that's the sacrifice you have to make. (Tolkien actually changed the sounds of names completely in LotR.)

> ʦ = ts
> ʣ = dz
> ʧ = ch
> ʤ = j
> x = kh
> ɣ = gh
> ʃ = sh
> ʒ = zh
> ɬ = lh

My recommendations appear next to the characters in question.

> The last five consonants are the sticking point; obviously, digraphs would work, but I can't use <sh> for [ʃ ], as the consonant cluster s+h occurs in the language, and I don't want to merge the two in the Romanization.

Separate them with a space (even if it's word-internal), e.g.

masha = [ma.ʃa]
mas ha = [mas.ha]

It will seem odd to anyone who knows the language, but it will result in maximal recognizability for English-speaking readers, and they have a better shot at getting the pronunciation right.

> Likewise, h+l, l+h and l+l exist, so those can't be used for [ɬ]. I thought of using <hlh> for [ɬ], but that just looks ugly. Any help will be appreciated.

Same reasoning as above.

malha = [ma.ɬa]
mal ha = [mal.ha]

Though what's the story on using actual unicode characters—ones that have a Roman variant? Is that pretty much out?

> (I want the Romanization to be fairly consistent and look nice, which is why I'm also questioning <ch> for [ʧ] and <j> for [ʤ]--those are very intuitive for English speakers, but I'd rather make it so that the Romanizations of [ʧ] and [ʤ] equal <t> + the Romanization of [ʃ] and <d> + the Romanization of [ʒ], to harmonize their representations with those of the dental/alveolar affricates).

That could get ugly looking... E.g. Tshadzha for [tʃa.dʒa].

> I'm also wondering if perhaps [i~] and [u~], since they are always nasalized, should appear with tildes in the Romanization, to aid in pronunciation?

That would be an excellent reason to *not* have tildes over them. If ĩ and ũ were the ordinary ones, sure, but since i and u are the normal ones, I wouldn't.

All of these suggestions assume a particular type of English speaking reader (and I am assuming that the readers—at least initially—are going to be English speakers). Now a conlanger would absolutely want a romanization system that would allow for full understanding of the language, whether it was phonetic, phonemic, or somewhere in between. For those without a background in language (or an interest), names, especially, can be a hang up if they're not easily sound-out-able. For that, there's two different considerations: First, the construction and sound of the name itself in the language; and second, the representation of it. It's my thought that for the average reader, one should sacrifice either one or the other. Tolkien sacrificed the former (changing names where he felt they would more closely fit with an English-speaker's expectations); I think you should do the latter. The language is going to be alien enough to an average English-speaker. In order to make it at least silently readable, I'd suggest that the romanization be systematic, transparent, and not necessarily faithful (e.g. I think it'd be better not to write the glottal stops than to represent it with something unintuitive).

My 2¢. Myself, I'm just waiting to read the book. :) (They'd better let you add a language appendix, though!)

David Peterson
LCS President
[log in to unmask]
www.conlang.org

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January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 3
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